Anja: 00:00:03

Every niche or target group has a certain language or

2

: 00:00:06

certain challenges that if just one of

them understands how Bitcoin fixes this,

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: 00:00:11

they can convey this to their people.

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: 00:00:17

Tali: Hey, everybody.

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: 00:00:17

Welcome to Orange Hatter.

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: 00:00:20

Anja: I'm a nomad.

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: 00:00:21

Tali: Got it.

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: 00:00:22

Okay.

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: 00:00:22

I, I ask a lot of personal questions.

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: 00:00:26

Anja: Yeah.

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: 00:00:26

Tali: I think, I think it's the personal

journey that is the most interesting.

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: 00:00:31

And I, there are so many podcasts

out there that are already teaching

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: 00:00:35

the how of Bitcoin, the technology of

Bitcoin and the politics of Bitcoin.

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: 00:00:41

But I think for women, and you

probably have seen this as well,

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: 00:00:45

talking to women, we need to know the

emotional why, like, why should I care?

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: 00:00:50

I've already got a lot

of things on my plate.

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: 00:00:53

Why should I redirect my attention?

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: 00:00:55

And give you the time of the day to learn

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: 00:00:59

Anja: yeah, that's what you mentioned,

that's what you mentioned in your article,

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also.

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Tali: Mm hmm.

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: 00:01:05

Anja: I do agree, but I also

think it's the same for men, I

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: 00:01:09

think, as humans, we like stories.

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: 00:01:12

You know, maybe men don't notice so much

But we are all influenced by advertisement

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or you know, like super bowl ads or

whatever everybody uses stories, you

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know but I think because bitcoin is a

technology it just drew in Techies in the

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beginning, you know, so I have a feeling

That, , it's built by techies, but the

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adoption happens through storytelling

and solutions, communicating, conveying

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solutions, you know, so I actually,

okay, it is a controversial take.

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I actually think that

orange peeling doesn't work.

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, Because I believe that we,

we are all only motivated to.

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learn about something when we

have a problem that needs fixing.

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Until we have a problem,

why would we, I mean, we only

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have so much time in our day.

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Why would we learn about

something or invest time in

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: 00:02:13

something that has no relevance?

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: 00:02:16

And that's actually, I don't know

about you, but I, in most, , stories

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that I hear from Bitcoiners

is what they all say the same.

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: 00:02:24

Oh, I heard about Bitcoin in

year so and so and I ignored it.

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: 00:02:28

You know, and then a few years later,

e for me, I heard about it in: 2013

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: 00:02:33

I saw this Bitcoin sticker,

Bitcoin accepted here.

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: 00:02:37

And I thought, what's Bitcoin sounds

like online gambling money for nerds,

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: 00:02:43

you know, has nothing to do with me.

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: 00:02:45

And then two years later, , I had

a problem that I needed solving,

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which was that I noticed my money

doesn't grow in the bank anymore.

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I don't get any interest.

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, I don't have a proper pension.

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: 00:02:55

Like I had a pension plan, but

it just didn't go anywhere.

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: 00:02:59

, and I noticed I need to.

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take matters in my own hands, you

know, like I need to grow my wealth.

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: 00:03:06

I need to find a new

way to grow my wealth.

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: 00:03:08

And it's the traditional options

that I knew about until that

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point just didn't work anymore.

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: 00:03:14

And, uh, and I noticed I need to

become an investor and I'm German.

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Germans are not raised to be investors.

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: 00:03:20

We are raised to be savers.

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: 00:03:22

And I was a really good

saver, but yeah, it's stupid.

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: 00:03:26

right now to save fiat money in the bank.

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: 00:03:30

So yeah.

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So that was about first, because

I didn't know about Bitcoin.

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I learned how to invest stocks and

commodities of, you know, this kind of

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stuff, which was really interesting for

me, but, I also learned how our money

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system works, which made me cringe.

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And I didn't want to participate

my energy or my money in that.

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And yeah, but then I heard about Bitcoin.

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And then, , because I was interested

and I had a problem that needed solving.

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I invested more time and actually

did start to study at this time, and

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I think I orange pilled myself.

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: 00:04:05

I mean, with all the help of

all the Andreas Antonopoulos and

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whoever was out there at the time.

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I didn't have anybody who came to me

and said, you have to look into Bitcoin.

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You have to look into Bitcoin because

it's going to do this or that for you.

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That did not happen.

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Tali: Yeah, I agree

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Anja: And I also never did that.

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I never did that with other people.

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I never went to these

women that I worked with.

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I never went to them.

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You have to.

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You have to know.

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This is what I do.

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If you're interested, I'm happy

to answer questions, but I'm not

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going to push this on anybody.

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Yeah.

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Tali: Yeah, I think sometimes the more we

push, the more they back away from you.

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Even though we're very excited and

they can tell that we're very excited.

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You're like, no, no, no, that's...

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That's not for me, right?

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So tell me a little bit

about your background.

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were in Germany and you

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Anja: Yeah.

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Tali: were saving.

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What were you

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Anja: I actually.

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I actually wasn't in Germany.

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I've lived abroad for half my life

and now I'm a complete digital nomad.

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So I'm just constantly traveling.

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, I was, , in the Netherlands.

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That's where I lived for a few years.

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And then I actually moved back to Germany.

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I tried to live in Germany again.

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So basically I was moving countries

and I was like, okay, let's take stock.

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do I need to get a job?

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Do I want to.

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restart my business in Berlin.

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That's where I was moving to.

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So I'm like, okay, let's just

take stock of all the finances.

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You know, how much money do I have?

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How urgently do I need to make money?

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What about pension plan?

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Yeah, yeah, yeah.

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And this is how I noticed

how things had changed.

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, and how, what I was doing saving

money just didn't work anymore.

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So that's what happened now.

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, as for my professional background,

I've always, , worked in operations.

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I'm an operations manager.

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, I've done this in the corporate fashion

world, then in the self development,

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spiritual development world, I've

worked for some spiritual teachers.

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, and then a year two years

into my Bitcoin journey.

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I was like, nah, I just, I don't

want to do anything else anymore.

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I don't want to like

moonlight as a Bitcoin.

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I just want to be a hundred percent,

, aligned , and be in Bitcoin.

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So it took me also, I was a little

bit in crypto and in web three.

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, but it's now since I think this narrative.

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Bitcoin not crypto really started

during the last year since Luna

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FTX and all of these things.

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, And I was like, yeah, , I've always told

people just do Bitcoin, don't make things

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complicated, you know, like, of course

you can do all the old coins or shit coins

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as well, but you're not making a mistake.

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: 00:06:42

You're only in Bitcoin.

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, and for me, this is.

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Just the last year has

solidified, uh, this.

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I am, I am a Bitcoiner.

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I don't want to do anything else anymore.

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Yeah.

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Tali: So now you're full

time working in Bitcoin.

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Anja: Uh, yes and no, because

right now I'm, , in between

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jobs, I don't have a project.

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I just finished one a month ago.

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And.

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But I'm, I have these phases, , you

know, as a freelancer, you, you

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know, how to deal with these phases.

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Either you have a lot of work or you

have no work for, and in Bitcoin also,

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or even in crypto, you know, things

we know the market cycles and, and

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: 00:07:25

the workload or, availability of jobs

arises and falls with the market cycles.

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So, but I'm prepared for that.

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That's fine.

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But I had this new.

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idea since I really, like I mentioned, I

think just before we started recording,

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, I went to the Bitcoin conference in

Prague in the summer and I realized

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that, , I had been serving outsiders

of the community, like, uh, people who

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wanted to buy their first Bitcoin or

learn about what this whole thing even is.

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: 00:07:57

, and I really noticed I want to start

serving the Bitcoin community now.

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: 00:08:02

So I was like, how can I, how

can I add value to Bitcoin us?

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: 00:08:07

What happened, , as I was connecting

with lots of other Bitcoin, as

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: 00:08:12

many of them were like, Oh, you

work in Bitcoin, you made it.

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: 00:08:16

And wow.

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I wish I could do that too.

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: 00:08:19

And I thought, Oh, people want, , I

think this is maybe a natural

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evolution as you were a Bitcoiner first.

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Most of us come into this world for the

money, and then we really understand

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the power of decentralization

or , sovereignty and true financial

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: 00:08:39

and the technology and this, that,

and I think we come to a point where

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we just want to start contributing

to the network, whether it's.

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The computer network or the human

network, the Bitcoin network, and maybe

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: 00:08:53

some people decide to run a node at

that point or start building an app

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: 00:08:58

or whatever, and other people just

might, , decide I want to get a job.

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: 00:09:03

And for a Bitcoin company, you know, we

all can contribute in different ways.

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: 00:09:07

This happened to me a few years ago.

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: 00:09:09

I've been working in Bitcoin

now for, I think I started

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2018 or 19, not sure anymore.

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: 00:09:17

And I noticed that other people

seem to go through the same process.

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: 00:09:21

So I thought, huh, so I

have been in this world.

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: 00:09:25

I know how it works.

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: 00:09:27

Why don't I help other people do the same?

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: 00:09:29

So this is how I started this

new project called Bitvocation,

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because I believe it's a calling.

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It's a vocation.

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It's, we're not just getting a job.

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: 00:09:39

I'm in super early stage right now.

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I'm not making any money from

this, but I'm having so much fun.

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: 00:09:45

It's such a creative process to connect

with everybody to find out what are

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their challenges and to see over

time how I can add value to them.

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So how I started, I don't know

if you saw this, , but I, made

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: 00:10:02

a simple, I didn't make it.

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: 00:10:04

I had it made a telegram bot

that is posting into a public

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: 00:10:10

channel, all the latest job

openings, Bitcoin only job openings.

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: 00:10:14

Yeah.

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: 00:10:15

So, because when you are searching for

a job, there are a few job boards, but

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they don't have all the, latest openings.

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So it can be quite time consuming, job

search can be quite time consuming.

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: 00:10:27

So I'm like, I'm German, you

know, I'm all about efficiency.

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: 00:10:32

So I'm like, why not just

make a bot and have this.

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: 00:10:35

It's sent to people's phone, you know,

they just need to open telegram once a day

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: 00:10:40

or something and scroll through the feed.

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: 00:10:42

And also because there are tons of web

three and crypto telegram channels.

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: 00:10:48

With our bot, we completely cut out

the noise and we do Bitcoin only.

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: 00:10:52

Which I think is valuable to,

to curate, , all of these jobs.

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So that's my first little product free.

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: 00:10:59

product, um,

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: 00:11:01

Tali: do, how do people

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: 00:11:02

Anja: is, I'm just posting everywhere

on social media, but I just started

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: 00:11:06

my Twitter account has 97 followers.

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: 00:11:09

So it's not that it's not

like I have a lot of reach.

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: 00:11:14

Um, but yeah, I think people

are starting to share it.

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: 00:11:18

I just have a little more than a

hundred people subscribed to the

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: 00:11:22

bot now, but it's only a week old.

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: 00:11:24

Tali: I think that is such a desired

service , and very needed . There's a

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: 00:11:29

group of Bitcoiners who are starting this

new initiative called Operation Bitcoin.

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: 00:11:35

And it's all about spreading Bitcoin

education to veterans, after

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: 00:11:39

they come out of the military

service, and, you know, tell them

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about Bitcoin and why it's useful.

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: 00:11:44

And then of course, as a follow up,,

you want to offer them something else.

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: 00:11:47

You don't want to tell them about Bitcoin

and it just kind of set them loose.

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: 00:11:50

And so one of the things that

they talked about was how do we

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direct them into Bitcoin jobs?

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: 00:11:55

Because that's the ultimate dream

of all Bitcoiners out there.

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: 00:11:58

Like eventually they want to give

up their fiat career and fiat job

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and go full time into Bitcoin.

220

: 00:12:04

So I think what you're providing

is tremendously valuable.

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So good job.

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: 00:12:10

And you got to start somewhere.

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It's okay.

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97 followers.

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That's a start.

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: 00:12:13

That's a star.

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: 00:12:14

Anja: Yeah.

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Tali: Congratulations.

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: 00:12:15

It's awesome.

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: 00:12:17

Anja: Yeah.

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: 00:12:17

Thank you.

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: 00:12:18

Thank you.

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: 00:12:19

The one thing I wanna say

about this though is, , that.

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Like sending out CVs everywhere,

I think, is the, , least

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possible way to find a job.

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: 00:12:29

And I don't know if that is Bitcoin

specific, , or because I haven't actively

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: 00:12:34

looked for a job, thank God, I didn't

have to, , for a while, so I You don't

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know how, , things work out there, but

for me, how I have been finding all

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: 00:12:44

my, , projects has all been through

the community through networking.

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: 00:12:49

Yeah.

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: 00:12:49

So this is the number one way.

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: 00:12:51

And since Bitcoin is a community, , I

think this is what people really have

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: 00:12:57

to learn to utilize the community

to really become connectors.

244

: 00:13:02

, I mean, it is a network

you have to network.

245

: 00:13:04

You are a node.

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: 00:13:06

In the Bitcoin network, and the

more other nodes you connect to,

247

: 00:13:10

the more successful you will be.

248

: 00:13:13

So there are tons more ways, so this

is all in my head right now, how I

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: 00:13:17

can convey this to people, how to...

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: 00:13:20

Package this up, but,

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: 00:13:21

Tali: Yeah, you mentioned that when

you went to the Prague conference, you

252

: 00:13:25

knew everybody, but nobody knew you.

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: 00:13:27

So it's time to change that.

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: 00:13:30

Anja: Exactly.

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: 00:13:30

Yeah.

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: 00:13:31

Yeah.

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: 00:13:32

So let's see.

258

: 00:13:33

But it's, yeah, it's a really

nice creative process and it's so

259

: 00:13:36

nice to speak to all these people.

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: 00:13:38

Like just today I posted in

this telecom channel, like.

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: 00:13:42

Because I noticed how many people are

completely underutilizing LinkedIn,

262

: 00:13:47

you know, and because LinkedIn I think

for Bitcoiners is also not our first

263

: 00:13:52

thought, someone connected with me

recently on LinkedIn and said, , , yeah,

264

: 00:13:56

even though we're in Bitcoin, let's

connect here on peak fiat LinkedIn.

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: 00:14:00

And I was like, ah, this is the

perception of LinkedIn out there,

266

: 00:14:06

but, , there are really Bitcoin specific

recruiters and where are they going

267

: 00:14:12

to look for candidates on LinkedIn?

268

: 00:14:14

It is still the number

one, , search engine.

269

: 00:14:17

And it is such a great tool to.

270

: 00:14:20

Utilize to be found in your

sleep, , just optimize your LinkedIn

271

: 00:14:24

profile so that this can do your job

search for you in a passive way, so

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: 00:14:29

I think this is right now this week.

273

: 00:14:31

This has really been forming in my

head that this is maybe how I can

274

: 00:14:35

provide the most value right now.

275

: 00:14:37

So I just post this day in the channel,

send me your LinkedIn profiles.

276

: 00:14:41

I'm going to review them and, uh,

yeah, because it helps me learn.

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: 00:14:45

And we have a value for value,

, way now to report each other.

278

: 00:14:49

So I can just put this out for free.

279

: 00:14:51

And if someone wants to, finds

it useful, they can decide what

280

: 00:14:55

they want to give back later.

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: 00:14:57

Tali: Yeah, , that's excellent.

282

: 00:14:58

I need help.

283

: 00:15:00

I know.

284

: 00:15:00

I know my husband needs help.

285

: 00:15:04

There's a whole

286

: 00:15:05

Anja: But what do you, yeah,

but what, what do you do?

287

: 00:15:08

Uh, and your husband?

288

: 00:15:09

for

289

: 00:15:09

Tali: Okay, so I just finished.

290

: 00:15:12

I said just but it was a few years ago.

291

: 00:15:14

I finished homeschooling my four kids.

292

: 00:15:17

Prior to having kids, yeah, four kids,

homeschool all the way through high

293

: 00:15:22

school, send them off to college.

294

: 00:15:25

And then my husband and I

were sitting there looking

295

: 00:15:28

at each other like, what now?

296

: 00:15:30

. Because , that was my full time job.

297

: 00:15:32

That was 24 seven.

298

: 00:15:33

That was unrelenting, uh, you

know, morning till night, Monday

299

: 00:15:39

through Sunday kind of work.

300

: 00:15:40

There was no room in my life at that time

to really do anything else whatsoever.

301

: 00:15:46

, so suddenly I was done and

then All this time freedom like

302

: 00:15:50

what am I gonna do with that?

303

: 00:15:53

Right around that time towards the end of

my kids homeschooling journey Scott found

304

: 00:15:58

Bitcoin and he spent two years trying to

convince me to get on board with him and

305

: 00:16:04

In the process of trying to get me to pay

attention because I was very resistant

306

: 00:16:08

I like we were talking before I had I

was juggling so many balls in the air.

307

: 00:16:13

I had no time or energy to give him

to this concept that I felt , was

308

: 00:16:18

pretty irrelevant to me, ? , I had,

I was single focus trying to get

309

: 00:16:23

the kids through high school and

he kept trying to get my attention.

310

: 00:16:27

And finally he said, you know what,

let me, can I just put it in the board

311

: 00:16:31

game form and just explain it to you?

312

: 00:16:33

Cause he's tried videos.

313

: 00:16:34

He tried podcasts, he tried books

and articles, all of those things.

314

: 00:16:38

And I was.

315

: 00:16:39

Either not willing to listen or read or I

did a little bit and I didn't understand

316

: 00:16:44

and I gave up so he finally made the

first prototype of HODL UP which is the

317

: 00:16:49

game that we have now that we are sharing

with the Bitcoin community and , in an

318

: 00:16:53

attempt to get me interested in Bitcoin

so that we can enter the space as a team,

319

: 00:16:58

, fully agreed, you know, together that

we were going to invest in this thing.

320

: 00:17:02

So over the course of two years, numerous

prototypes finally got me on board.

321

: 00:17:07

I finally understood the technology

enough to say, fine, I will read a book.

322

: 00:17:11

You know, I will read a darn book.

323

: 00:17:13

And of course I read the book and

I was sold because , , I'm 50.

324

: 00:17:19

So I'm looking back at our money journey.

325

: 00:17:22

And I was like, I cannot believe I

didn't understand what was going on.

326

: 00:17:28

And all the decisions that we made,

that we thought were so correct,

327

: 00:17:33

based on what we've been told,

was just playing into their game.

328

: 00:17:38

And I was so angry.

329

: 00:17:39

I, like, when I was reading my

first book, I was so angry I had

330

: 00:17:43

to put it down over and over again.

331

: 00:17:44

It took me several weeks to read

this one little short book called,

332

: 00:17:47

, Bitcoin, Hard Money You Can't F With.

333

: 00:17:49

But at the end of the book,

I was completely sold.

334

: 00:17:52

And the kids graduated and now we, I

have time and Scott and I are looking at

335

: 00:17:55

each other like what are we going to do?

336

: 00:17:56

And I said, listen, if you can use this

game to show me that Bitcoin is real.

337

: 00:18:02

Then another Bitcoiner is going to

be able to use that game to show

338

: 00:18:04

their family that Bitcoin is real.

339

: 00:18:06

And so , that's what started us traveling

to different states and bringing the game

340

: 00:18:10

to different Bitcoin meetups, which led

to my realization that we really needed

341

: 00:18:14

more female voices in this space, which

is why I started Orange Hatter podcast.

342

: 00:18:19

And then more traveling, more

conferences, and Scott and I realized

343

: 00:18:22

that there's a great interest in the

Bitcoin community in self custodying

344

: 00:18:27

their children's education, which is

homeschooling, which is what we did.

345

: 00:18:30

I can talk homeschooling.

346

: 00:18:32

All day long, literally, like Scott

can talk about Bitcoin all day long,

347

: 00:18:36

politics, macroeconomics, all that stuff.

348

: 00:18:38

I can talk about parenting and

homeschooling all day long, ? And

349

: 00:18:43

so we started a podcast

called Bitcoin homeschoolers.

350

: 00:18:46

So now we have two podcasts.

351

: 00:18:47

We're running free market kids.

352

: 00:18:49

We're trying to, , promote HODL up and

Scott is a really avid game designer.

353

: 00:18:55

That's his language.

354

: 00:18:56

When lightning started to become sort

of common Discussion topics in the

355

: 00:19:01

Bitcoin community second layer making

the transactions faster cheaper, etc He

356

: 00:19:05

started thinking how do I explain second

layer to people because it can be very

357

: 00:19:09

confusing the Inbound, outbound liquidity.

358

: 00:19:13

It's not something very intuitive, at

least , for me, for people like me.

359

: 00:19:18

So then he said, I want to make a

lightning game so that you can understand.

360

: 00:19:23

What they're talking about.

361

: 00:19:24

So over the course of last year, he

made a prototype, tested with us,

362

: 00:19:28

then started bringing it to all

of , these Bitcoin gatherings , and

363

: 00:19:31

he tried to play with as many experts

in the Lightning space as possible.

364

: 00:19:36

And now it's ready to launch.

365

: 00:19:38

So we have that.

366

: 00:19:39

We have another one that he

was trying to explain entropy.

367

: 00:19:42

You know, the, the C phrases,

like why it works, why 12

368

: 00:19:46

words is enough kind of thing.

369

: 00:19:47

So that's

370

: 00:19:48

Anja: Yeah, wow

371

: 00:19:49

Tali: he has developed.

372

: 00:19:50

And he's got several games in the back

of his mind that he wants to roll out.

373

: 00:19:53

So yeah, so that's what we do.

374

: 00:19:55

So he did.

375

: 00:19:56

He

376

: 00:19:56

Anja: Amazing.

377

: 00:19:57

So

378

: 00:19:58

Tali: as well.

379

: 00:19:58

Yeah,

380

: 00:19:59

Anja: so but basically he your job the

last few years has been homeschooling

381

: 00:20:04

His job has been game designing.

382

: 00:20:06

Is that what he does or it's

383

: 00:20:07

just a hobby?

384

: 00:20:09

Tali: it was a hobby.

385

: 00:20:09

It was a hobby.

386

: 00:20:10

, he worked in operations I don't

know if there is the same kind of

387

: 00:20:15

operations, but he did warehouse

Operations inbound outbound that kind

388

: 00:20:19

of thing He did that for 20 years and

now he's like no I want I want to be

389

: 00:20:25

in Bitcoin full time This is what I

believe in so that's what we're doing

390

: 00:20:29

Anja: Yeah, but amazing how he obviously

has, uh, or both of you have, , a

391

: 00:20:34

skill to bring complicated, , topics or

knowledge across , and break it down.

392

: 00:20:40

even for children.

393

: 00:20:41

In your experience, is it actually, do

people use it actually for children?

394

: 00:20:45

Because I always think, or anything

that's, uh, that's made for children

395

: 00:20:50

is so great for us grown ups to, to

396

: 00:20:53

learn in an easy way.

397

: 00:20:55

Tali: I like to read children's books,

, like children's biography and things

398

: 00:20:58

like that, because, and with pictures,

because I think I love learning that way.

399

: 00:21:04

Uh, for HODL UP, Scott actually

created this specifically for me.

400

: 00:21:09

So yeah, it's for children.

401

: 00:21:11

Because in technology, I just,

it's, I'm in such foreign waters

402

: 00:21:16

when I think computer technology.

403

: 00:21:18

And so Well, we have found Bitcoiners

who have purchased this game, it's been

404

: 00:21:24

pretty evenly split between, , introducing

their spouse their brother, sister their

405

: 00:21:29

parents and sharing with their children.

406

: 00:21:32

Children are easy.

407

: 00:21:33

Children are so easy.

408

: 00:21:35

You play the game with them.

409

: 00:21:36

They pick it up in five minutes.

410

: 00:21:37

You're like, I'm good to go.

411

: 00:21:39

Where's my wallet?

412

: 00:21:40

Give me some Bitcoin.

413

: 00:21:41

Like it's, it's quick.

414

: 00:21:43

The game it's designed so that.

415

: 00:21:46

It takes about half an hour, 45 minutes,

depending on how long you want to

416

: 00:21:49

strategize, about winning the game.

417

: 00:21:51

at the end of that, the number one

lesson you take away from the game

418

: 00:21:56

is get your Bitcoin in cold storage.

419

: 00:21:58

, you can't play the game and

not get that one lesson.

420

: 00:22:02

Everybody comes away from, and so children

would be, like we had one customer

421

: 00:22:07

write us a tweet, and he said, All I

heard was my five year old and my seven

422

: 00:22:13

year old yelling at each other about

getting their Bitcoin to cold storage

423

: 00:22:16

because they were playing the game.

424

: 00:22:18

And we're like, great, that's awesome.

425

: 00:22:20

Now when our customers told us

about playing with parents, so

426

: 00:22:24

they're harder to convince they they

grew up under a different system.

427

: 00:22:27

And they have a lot more questions.

428

: 00:22:29

So when they play the game, they

start to ask questions like,

429

: 00:22:32

What is this difficulty dial?

430

: 00:22:33

Why do you keep moving number up and down?

431

: 00:22:35

How come you start with more

Bitcoin and then by the end of the

432

: 00:22:38

game, you're earning less Bitcoin?

433

: 00:22:39

Well, that's called having.

434

: 00:22:41

And then we like sprinkle other stuff

in there so they can ask questions.

435

: 00:22:45

So if they want to win, which everybody

playing a board game wants to win,

436

: 00:22:49

they will inevitably ask questions

about Bitcoin because they must

437

: 00:22:53

it's part of the game mechanics.

438

: 00:22:55

And at the end of it, even

if they're not Orange pilled.

439

: 00:22:58

Like you said, they have to have a

problem that needs Bitcoin as the

440

: 00:23:01

solution, ? So even if they're not orange

pilled, they cannot help but to walk

441

: 00:23:06

away from the game understanding more

about Bitcoin and that's the whole point.

442

: 00:23:10

Anja: Yeah.

443

: 00:23:10

Amazing.

444

: 00:23:11

Tali: Yeah,

445

: 00:23:12

Anja: Amazing.

446

: 00:23:13

Especially also, like we were talking

about women before, , in my work

447

: 00:23:17

with women, I also noticed women just

want to feel smarter when they find

448

: 00:23:22

themselves in a Bitcoin conversation.

449

: 00:23:25

Yeah, and even just, even if you're

not interested after playing this

450

: 00:23:29

game, you are automatically smarter

and you know actually how things work.

451

: 00:23:34

It's great.

452

: 00:23:35

Yeah.

453

: 00:23:36

Tali: Exactly.

454

: 00:23:37

, actually, what started this whole thing

was a game that Scott created to teach

455

: 00:23:41

economic principles to our children

when they were in elementary school.

456

: 00:23:45

And we both got our MBA.

457

: 00:23:47

So we study economics, the traditional

way with very thick textbooks,

458

: 00:23:52

Long lectures, lots of graphs and

calculations, et cetera, et cetera.

459

: 00:23:56

When we were talking about teaching

our kids money, this is one of the

460

: 00:24:00

reasons why I was so angry when I

was reading the first Bitcoin book,

461

: 00:24:03

was like, we were so deliberate in

teaching our kids about money, and

462

: 00:24:07

what we taught them wasn't even what...

463

: 00:24:09

If like how it actually works,

you know, but anyway, so, so in

464

: 00:24:13

the beginning when we, when he

created his first game, the game is

465

: 00:24:16

called, is that the best you can do?

466

: 00:24:18

And we wanted the kids to play a game

and at the end of the game, be able

467

: 00:24:23

to answer questions like, how does the

price move when supply goes up or down?

468

: 00:24:30

Demand goes up or down.

469

: 00:24:32

What happens if there is a tariff that's

imposed on a product, what happens

470

: 00:24:36

when there's technology development

and the way that the kids play?

471

: 00:24:41

It's a negotiation game, so they're

practicing their language skills there

472

: 00:24:44

, talking up their product, they're

trying to sell it to their buyers,

473

: 00:24:47

you know, and they have to do mental

calculations really quick because they

474

: 00:24:50

got to quickly decide how low their price

can go or how high they can bid up so

475

: 00:24:56

that they can maximize their profits.

476

: 00:24:57

So they're doing mental calculations.

477

: 00:24:59

But at the end of that,

they know how price moves.

478

: 00:25:04

And it takes 30 minutes or 45 minutes,

depending on how, how active they are.

479

: 00:25:08

You don't have to give them a lecture.

480

: 00:25:10

You don't have to show them

graphs about how price moves.

481

: 00:25:13

Like that's the beauty of using

games to teach concepts because

482

: 00:25:16

they just pick it up, you know?

483

: 00:25:18

So yeah.

484

: 00:25:19

Anja: Yeah.

485

: 00:25:20

Amazing.

486

: 00:25:21

And how is it going?

487

: 00:25:23

How are sales going?

488

: 00:25:24

Because it's still a

super niche, of course.

489

: 00:25:27

And

490

: 00:25:27

Tali: It is,

491

: 00:25:29

Anja: are you advertising it

or are you traveling to every

492

: 00:25:32

Bitcoin meetup in the world?

493

: 00:25:35

Tali: we tried, we

try, , sales are going good.

494

: 00:25:39

They always spike after we do a podcast

interview because we still haven't

495

: 00:25:44

figured out the marketing bit to

reach Bitcoiners because Bitcoiners,

496

: 00:25:48

Anja: Yeah,

497

: 00:25:49

, Tali: they tend like the

traditional email campaign.

498

: 00:25:53

I don't feel that that

actually works with Bitcoiners.

499

: 00:25:55

A lot of them.

500

: 00:25:56

don't have an email they check all

the time anyway, or they have like

501

: 00:25:59

five different email accounts.

502

: 00:26:01

So they're very privacy oriented.

503

: 00:26:03

That bit Scott, I haven't figured out

we're still trying to figure it out.

504

: 00:26:06

But we definitely go to a lot of in

person events as much as possible.

505

: 00:26:09

We travel to Bitcoin Park

every month to continue

506

: 00:26:13

Anja: it's kind of punk.

507

: 00:26:14

Tali: Bitcoin Park is in Nashville.

508

: 00:26:15

It's a major hub for Bitcoiners.

509

: 00:26:18

In the United States,

we have two major hubs.

510

: 00:26:21

We have Nashville and

we have Austin, Texas.

511

: 00:26:24

So Nashville is about three hours

from where we live, so we try

512

: 00:26:27

to go there as much as possible.

513

: 00:26:29

And they have tons of events there.

514

: 00:26:31

Lots of Bitcoiners fly in

from all over the world.

515

: 00:26:34

A lot of Bitcoins are moving

to Nashville for Bitcoin Park.

516

: 00:26:38

So it's an amazing...

517

: 00:26:40

amazing gathering place.

518

: 00:26:42

But yeah, to answer your

question, we need help.

519

: 00:26:45

We need help with our marketing

initiative because we know our

520

: 00:26:49

product is good and effective.

521

: 00:26:51

And we've tested it with so

many people and we just get

522

: 00:26:55

we have endless testimonies

of how well this game works for

523

: 00:27:00

Anja: Yeah.

524

: 00:27:00

Tali: Acting as a conversation opener

because that's I think that's the

525

: 00:27:03

hardest thing that bitcorners find With

resistant family members, you can't

526

: 00:27:09

even start talking about it, you know

without somebody going please stop,

527

: 00:27:13

you know It's almost like talking

about politics during holidays.

528

: 00:27:16

You can't really like

how to even start right?

529

: 00:27:20

But if you say hey you guys , let's

just sit down, play a board game,

530

: 00:27:23

we'll make some popcorn, , pour

, some wine, make some hot chocolate

531

: 00:27:26

for the kids, let's just play.

532

: 00:27:28

And then in the process of it, not only do

you learn about Bitcoin, you don't have to

533

: 00:27:32

buy into it, but you learn about Bitcoin,

but you also have family time, you have

534

: 00:27:36

fellowship, and you're not looking at

a screen, you're looking at each other

535

: 00:27:40

in the eyeballs and you're interacting.

536

: 00:27:41

So,

537

: 00:27:42

Anja: Yeah.

538

: 00:27:42

And also, I don't know if this is a

general thing or I'm just noticing like a

539

: 00:27:47

big comeback in my life with board games.

540

: 00:27:51

Maybe that's a COVID phenomenon,

but I'm a nomad, I live in co-living.

541

: 00:27:57

I travel, I work from co-working

spaces and board games are everywhere.

542

: 00:28:02

, I think it's also, , , maybe

that's a tip for you for, to

543

: 00:28:05

contact these kind of, , places.

544

: 00:28:08

, I think people also just wanna

get away from the screen,

545

: 00:28:11

, sometimes, and just, uh, yeah.

546

: 00:28:14

I think that's why board games are

really in right now, in my world.

547

: 00:28:19

Yeah.

548

: 00:28:20

Tali: Yeah, for sure.

549

: 00:28:20

That's, that's what we have found.

550

: 00:28:22

A lot of Bitcoiners are huge board gamers,

and Scott obviously is a huge board gamer.

551

: 00:28:27

His brother is a huge board

gamer, and they go to this game

552

: 00:28:30

conference every year called GenCon.

553

: 00:28:32

It's in Indianapolis, and I think

they average anywhere between 60

554

: 00:28:38

to 80 thousand people per year.

555

: 00:28:40

attending the event.

556

: 00:28:42

I mean, there are some serious gamers

out there, and they are passionate,

557

: 00:28:46

passionate about their games.

558

: 00:28:47

But they are not Bitcoiners.

559

: 00:28:49

So, Scott tried bringing his game there,

and people were like, what is that?

560

: 00:28:54

We don't...

561

: 00:28:55

What is that?

562

: 00:28:56

You know?

563

: 00:28:57

Anja: Yeah.

564

: 00:28:58

Yeah.

565

: 00:28:58

But don't you find in your homeschooling

community that there's interest there?

566

: 00:29:03

Because it's just the values seem to

be aligned with those two communities.

567

: 00:29:08

Tali: That's...

568

: 00:29:08

I'm so glad you said that.

569

: 00:29:09

That's exactly what we thought.

570

: 00:29:12

And so Scott and I did bring our game

to, several homeschooling conferences.

571

: 00:29:17

In the hopes of introducing this tool,

because what better way to teach your kids

572

: 00:29:22

about this new money technology, right?

573

: 00:29:24

It's going to be the new money standard.

574

: 00:29:27

And homeschoolers really care about

that, like money, education, financial

575

: 00:29:31

education for their children.

576

: 00:29:32

So we brought it there

with such high hopes.

577

: 00:29:35

But the crazy thing was that we had

a booth and the first conference we

578

: 00:29:41

went to, we kind of danced around.

579

: 00:29:42

We said, Oh,

580

: 00:29:42

it's money education, and once

people heard that we were teaching

581

: 00:29:47

Bitcoin, they were like, no, thank you.

582

: 00:29:48

And just left.

583

: 00:29:49

I'm like, that's so weird.

584

: 00:29:51

So the second conference, we're like,

you know what, we're not dancing around.

585

: 00:29:54

We're going to put up like, we had

two spinning, , Bitcoin signs, like

586

: 00:29:58

literally spinning over our booth.

587

: 00:30:02

Like, if you care about

Bitcoin, come here.

588

: 00:30:04

We'll tell you about it.

589

: 00:30:05

If you don't, fine.

590

: 00:30:07

at That conference, I think

there were 15, 000 attendees.

591

: 00:30:09

And they you can see the traffic , you

can see the aisle people moving,

592

: 00:30:14

what happens was, they will see

our spinning Bitcoin and they

593

: 00:30:17

will kind of make a wide berth.

594

: 00:30:20

Anja: No.

595

: 00:30:20

Yeah.

596

: 00:30:20

Hmm.

597

: 00:30:21

Tali: and they were avoiding eye contact.

598

: 00:30:23

It was the wildest thing It was the

it was wild and we're Scott and I are

599

: 00:30:28

just done We're like this aligns with

everything you believe about homeschooling

600

: 00:30:33

why you're teaching your own kids

Why you don't trust the public system

601

: 00:30:37

this fully aligns, but for whatever

reason they were not ready to hear it

602

: 00:30:42

I even gave a workshop about money.

603

: 00:30:44

And yeah, so then Scott wrote An

article in Bitcoin magazine to talk

604

: 00:30:49

about how much the two topics actually

align homeschooling and Bitcoin.

605

: 00:30:53

So there's a lot of interest

in the Bitcoin community to

606

: 00:30:57

homeschool across the board.

607

: 00:30:59

If they can do it financially,

they want to homeschool their

608

: 00:31:01

kids, but not the other way around.

609

: 00:31:04

I think that will change though.

610

: 00:31:05

I feel like it will change

in the next few years.

611

: 00:31:07

I think we just went there a little

bit too early and people weren't ready.

612

: 00:31:11

Anja: I noticed this in the, you

know, about FIRE, this movement,

613

: 00:31:16

FIRE movement, like Financial

Independence Retire Early, FIRE.

614

: 00:31:22

Have you heard about this?

615

: 00:31:24

Tali: actually interviewed someone

for my podcast who told me about it.

616

: 00:31:28

Yeah.

617

: 00:31:28

Anja: Yeah, I heard about this a few years

ago and I was like, Oh, these people must

618

: 00:31:34

all be into Bitcoin, but they aren't.

619

: 00:31:38

They do ETFs and you

know, all the other stuff.

620

: 00:31:41

And, and there's very, um, I mean,

a few are open to it, but like,

621

: 00:31:48

It's not like, uh, as much as an

overlap as I would have expected.

622

: 00:31:53

So it's similar to what you just said.

623

: 00:31:56

It's

624

: 00:31:57

Tali: Yeah, it's the same thing

with the Dave Ramsey movement, , the

625

: 00:32:00

no debt, no credit, I don't

know if you're familiar with him.

626

: 00:32:03

He's very, very popular in

the Christian community.

627

: 00:32:06

Anja: his name.

628

: 00:32:07

I know his name, but I'm, I

629

: 00:32:09

Tali: Yeah, it's all about reducing

your expenses, making sure you pay

630

: 00:32:13

off all of your debts, be debt free.

631

: 00:32:16

And I'm not sure exactly what he

recommends for investments, but he for

632

: 00:32:21

a while was even teaching people like

if you are not a professional, just sell

633

: 00:32:25

your rental properties because you're

just going to drain money into your

634

: 00:32:29

rental properties, that kind of stuff.

635

: 00:32:30

So I don't hear people talk

about Bitcoin who follow him.

636

: 00:32:35

I haven't listened to him, but that's

a very popular financial planning

637

: 00:32:40

Curriculum that the homeschoolers follow

but it's again It's not like I think they

638

: 00:32:44

all tend to think cryptocurrencies are

all the same and a lot of them think that

639

: 00:32:49

They've missed the boat with bitcoin So

they don't really understand bitcoin.

640

: 00:32:53

They're just looking at it

like an investment vehicle

641

: 00:32:55

Anja: Well, it just comes back to the

point again, that until they have a

642

: 00:32:58

problem that they need to solve, they will

not be open to listen or to study Bitcoin.

643

: 00:33:03

It's just the way it is, yeah.

644

: 00:33:05

Tali: Yeah.

645

: 00:33:06

Um, Hey, so , what are you doing?

646

: 00:33:08

Is it okay that I , tell

people where you are right now?

647

: 00:33:11

Anja: Uh, yes, where I am right now,

like in Greece, or what do you mean?

648

: 00:33:14

Tali: Yeah.

649

: 00:33:15

Yeah.

650

: 00:33:15

I,

651

: 00:33:16

Anja: sure.

652

: 00:33:17

Tali: I, I would love to go to

Greece and I, I kind of envy digital

653

: 00:33:21

nomads a little bit because you get

to see so many different places.

654

: 00:33:25

What brought you to Greece?

655

: 00:33:27

Anja: Uh, actually my friend, , who

I'm sharing an apartment with.

656

: 00:33:30

Yeah, because I was actually in Thailand.

657

: 00:33:32

We both met, we have sort of

our base in Bulgaria, like where

658

: 00:33:37

we are registered on paper.

659

: 00:33:39

, Bulgaria has a tiny town called Bansko,

B A N S K O, , which is sort of a

660

: 00:33:45

hub in Europe for digital nomads.

661

: 00:33:48

And so this is where we met.

662

: 00:33:50

, we stay at the same co living there.

663

: 00:33:52

So we spend a few months there.

664

: 00:33:53

Then we all travel in

different directions.

665

: 00:33:55

And then we come back, , a

few months later.

666

: 00:33:58

So I was in Thailand.

667

: 00:34:00

And he was like, Oh, I'm

going, I'm in Greece.

668

: 00:34:03

I'm going to be alone for my birthday.

669

: 00:34:06

I have an apartment with two bedrooms.

670

: 00:34:08

. And I was like, okay, I've been

for two months in Thailand.

671

: 00:34:11

So why don't I just come back to Europe?

672

: 00:34:14

It's been enough.

673

: 00:34:15

In Asia, I planned also really

badly because I went from, from

674

: 00:34:20

one island where, where the rainy

season just started to the next place

675

: 00:34:24

where the rainy season just ended.

676

: 00:34:26

So I had frizzy hair everywhere.

677

: 00:34:29

I couldn't make videos.

678

: 00:34:32

So I was like, oh yeah, I don't

have to look for accommodation.

679

: 00:34:36

Yeah, I'm just going to go back and

surprise him, , for his birthday.

680

: 00:34:40

So now we spend a month here.

681

: 00:34:43

I'm on Crete right now on the island,

and then we're going to spend a couple

682

: 00:34:48

of weeks in Athens where I'm going to

meet the Bitcoiner community there.

683

: 00:34:53

On Crete, there are no Bitcoiners here.

684

: 00:34:55

I'm using the OrangePill app.

685

: 00:34:56

I don't know if you are

on the OrangePill app.

686

: 00:34:59

And there's just nobody.

687

: 00:35:00

I mean, there are people, but like

300 kilometers away or something.

688

: 00:35:05

So, but I connected with a bunch

of people in Athens, so I'm

689

: 00:35:09

going to join the meetup there.

690

: 00:35:11

And then I'm going to make my

way back to Bulgaria to rest.

691

: 00:35:16

This is always my resting place.

692

: 00:35:18

Two months there, two months

somewhere else, and then I come back.

693

: 00:35:23

Yeah, I don't know if

I'm a real digital nomad.

694

: 00:35:25

I call myself a digital

slow mad or home mad.

695

: 00:35:31

Tali: So Bulgaria.

696

: 00:35:33

Anja: to travel all the time.

697

: 00:35:34

Tali: Yeah, so tell me about

this place in Bulgaria.

698

: 00:35:37

I'm very curious, how many people are

there and how many people go in and out.

699

: 00:35:42

Anja: So, the town only

has 12, 000, , inhabitants.

700

: 00:35:47

But I think at any point in time,

there are always like around

701

: 00:35:53

200 nomads, so 200 foreigners.

702

: 00:35:56

Um, and they are very used to

living with foreigners because it's

703

: 00:35:59

actually a winter sport resort.

704

: 00:36:01

If you Google Bansko, you will see the

most beautiful, , winter, , images.

705

: 00:36:06

, and so they're very used

to tourists in the winter.

706

: 00:36:09

And yeah, there was a guy a few

years ago, six years ago or something

707

: 00:36:14

who just said, Oh, this is a

really nice place all year round.

708

: 00:36:17

Why don't I open a coworking space

and just, uh, bring all the nomads.

709

: 00:36:22

And I think also, so for me,

it was since, COVID actually,

710

: 00:36:26

because most of us, we like to go.

711

: 00:36:28

to the sun, in the winter,

Thailand, Bali or whatever.

712

: 00:36:32

, but , I didn't really want to

travel very far during COVID.

713

: 00:36:35

So, uh, and I'm from Europe, so I

thought, oh, let's get to know Europe.

714

: 00:36:40

And so I went to Bansko

and it's a special place.

715

: 00:36:44

If anybody listens here who wants to,

who wants to become a digital nomad,

716

: 00:36:49

it's a great first starting point.

717

: 00:36:51

Because even if you travel by yourself,

since it's such a small place, you

718

: 00:36:56

get the community provided to you.

719

: 00:36:59

You cannot.

720

: 00:37:00

not connect there.

721

: 00:37:02

There's also a big nomad fest

in the summer every year.

722

: 00:37:05

And it's also very affordable because

especially now with inflation,

723

: 00:37:09

everything becoming more expensive

and , the number of places that we

724

: 00:37:12

can afford to live in is shrinking,

, Eastern Europe is really a gem still.

725

: 00:37:18

where people can afford to live.

726

: 00:37:20

It's also two hours away from

Greece or from the Greece beaches.

727

: 00:37:24

So, yeah, I can recommend it.

728

: 00:37:27

Plus, I'm there, so you can meet me.

729

: 00:37:31

Tali: So other than Bulgaria,

where else have you traveled

730

: 00:37:34

that you absolutely loved?

731

: 00:37:36

Anja: Well, Thailand is a

really easy, , place to travel,

732

: 00:37:40

also for women solo travelers.

733

: 00:37:42

Thailand and Bali in Asia.

734

: 00:37:45

I love the States.

735

: 00:37:47

I love doing road trips,

, anywhere in the States.

736

: 00:37:51

I haven't been in a long time, , because

I always need to go with someone

737

: 00:37:54

because I'm not a good driver.

738

: 00:37:56

I'm not a good, , a very confident driver.

739

: 00:37:59

, I really want to go to South

America or Latin America.

740

: 00:38:03

I have not been there at all yet.

741

: 00:38:05

, so I'm a bit jealous that

you're going to El Salvador now.

742

: 00:38:09

, I have Had this on my list, but even

though I follow all the news about

743

: 00:38:14

El Salvador a lot, , I'm still a bit

scared to travel there by myself.

744

: 00:38:19

, even though maybe that's wrong, it's

just, , things sound good from the people

745

: 00:38:23

who are there and everything is safe but

, I would like to go with someone else.

746

: 00:38:28

And I just have, I don't

really have Bitcoin.

747

: 00:38:31

, my friends are supportive

of me being in Bitcoin.

748

: 00:38:35

But they are not in Bitcoin.

749

: 00:38:37

So nobody is motivated enough to travel

with me to a conference in El Salvador.

750

: 00:38:42

And it's just something, some places

I just don't want to go by myself.

751

: 00:38:46

It's just a safety thing or just

752

: 00:38:48

the , first time thing.

753

: 00:38:50

Yeah, but I've been also in all of Europe.

754

: 00:38:53

I've been, , to a couple

of places in Africa.

755

: 00:38:56

America and Asia are the

places I've been to most,.

756

: 00:39:00

Tali: think that's very wise to

not go to somewhere by yourself the

757

: 00:39:05

first time, you have to gauge, who

you can trust and where you can go.

758

: 00:39:09

I think that's very wise.

759

: 00:39:11

Anja: And once you're there and you see,

oh, this is not at all what as bad or

760

: 00:39:15

whatever I expected, then it's easy,

761

: 00:39:18

Tali: Yeah, most places are not

the way news portray it to be.

762

: 00:39:21

We were on the call with someone

who lives in Hong Kong, and he

763

: 00:39:26

was going to travel to the States

and his girlfriend was so worried.

764

: 00:39:29

He was like, please don't get shot.

765

: 00:39:30

And That's their impression of America

is like if you walk on the streets

766

: 00:39:34

here, you just get shot like no That's

not no, that's not the way it actually

767

: 00:39:38

is here you gotta know where not to go,

but that's the same everywhere So yeah, I

768

: 00:39:44

don't I don't think news does justice to

what actually is happening in most places

769

: 00:39:50

Anja: yeah, exactly.

770

: 00:39:51

And it's always nice to check out

for yourself but in a In a safe way.

771

: 00:39:56

Tali: Yeah, yeah for sure.

772

: 00:39:57

So you mentioned that your friends are

not Bitcoiners So are you the only one

773

: 00:40:02

in your close group family friends?

774

: 00:40:04

Anja: Yeah.

775

: 00:40:05

I mean, I meet Bitcoin us being a nomad.

776

: 00:40:08

I have one friend who is a

lightning developer, actually.

777

: 00:40:12

, but the really like my travel

family or the people that

778

: 00:40:15

I spend the most time with.

779

: 00:40:18

Yeah, like I said, they're

very supportive, and they

780

: 00:40:21

all own Bitcoin, at least.

781

: 00:40:23

But only because they hear me

talk about it all the time.

782

: 00:40:26

Uh, they would never, and maybe

they have just 10 worth of Bitcoin,

783

: 00:40:30

whatever, you know, but it's just

like, okay, because I'm asset.

784

: 00:40:35

Tali: Right.

785

: 00:40:36

Anja: Uh, one of them is really into it.

786

: 00:40:39

He talks about it a lot, but he's not a

Bitcoiner, it's just, he's into something

787

: 00:40:44

else, but he wants to grow his money.

788

: 00:40:46

And yes, that Bitcoin is

definitely part of that.

789

: 00:40:49

, but yeah, it's very few.

790

: 00:40:52

Very few people,

791

: 00:40:53

,

Tali: So basically, it sounds like they know that you do Bitcoin.

792

: 00:40:56

And if they have questions,

they'll come to you.

793

: 00:40:57

But so far, they're standing

outside looking in just

794

: 00:41:03

waiting to see what happens.

795

: 00:41:05

Anja: not even.

796

: 00:41:06

It's just not part of their world.

797

: 00:41:11

The only thing they know about

Bitcoin is that I keep talking about

798

: 00:41:14

it and that this is something I do.

799

: 00:41:16

So if they would meet someone who

wants to learn more or whatever

800

: 00:41:20

they would say, oh you need to

speak to my friend Anja or whatever.

801

: 00:41:23

So that's That's it.

802

: 00:41:25

Tali: Yeah, I guess we're

still kind of fringe.

803

: 00:41:27

What about the women that

you have worked with?

804

: 00:41:29

You said that you were helping some would

you call them clients to set up wallets

805

: 00:41:35

Anja: Yeah

806

: 00:41:35

Tali: understand a little bit like

807

: 00:41:37

Anja: So that's yeah, this

was really interesting.

808

: 00:41:40

Also the motivation, , some of them,

like I said, they just, like I had one

809

: 00:41:45

woman, her husband was a CFO in a big

company, , and just like, I'm not telling

810

: 00:41:50

him that I'm investing in Bitcoin.

811

: 00:41:51

I will only tell him once I have had

some success with this, you know, , or

812

: 00:41:57

some just wanted to sound smarter in a

conversation, , because , their husbands

813

: 00:42:02

kept talking about Bitcoin, but often.

814

: 00:42:05

I mean, I cannot generalize because

I only have the stories from

815

: 00:42:09

the people that I worked with.

816

: 00:42:11

, but often family members don't

want to teach other family members.

817

: 00:42:16

Like I had, , people send me their

parents so that I could teach them,

818

: 00:42:21

but the children were Bitcoin or

in crypto or whatever, I'm like,

819

: 00:42:24

why don't you, it's like, no, it's

not good for our relationship.

820

: 00:42:27

Why I'm too impatient or whatever,

but I also had a lot of women, , in

821

: 00:42:32

their fifties and older, because

that's also something I noticed.

822

: 00:42:37

And I, I realized we always think

that, , people who are in Bitcoin, this

823

: 00:42:42

is a certain type of people and you

would not expect , first of all, many

824

: 00:42:46

women or women over a certain age, but

this is where the disposable income is.

825

: 00:42:50

And this is where.

826

: 00:42:52

the people really start caring

about their pension plan.

827

: 00:42:58

I mean, once you're, that's something

also with friends, once they hit 40,

828

: 00:43:02

suddenly they're like, I did I actually

prepare for my pension or whatever,

829

: 00:43:07

because you're suddenly closer to

your pension than you were before.

830

: 00:43:11

, so either they care more about this

for themselves or they care about

831

: 00:43:15

what they're going to leave behind.

832

: 00:43:17

, so we should not, , dismiss this age

group, and maybe that's even really

833

: 00:43:22

an important one to concentrate on and

explain in a really meaningful way.

834

: 00:43:28

Thank good language or with games or

whatever, , what this is all about.

835

: 00:43:32

. But also what I liked about your article,

going back to this, about the stories

836

: 00:43:36

and how we talk to certain target groups.

837

: 00:43:37

This is also really

something I believe in there.

838

: 00:43:41

Even you, I, we cannot

speak to all the women.

839

: 00:43:44

There are some women who we don't resonate

with, and we cannot generalize that

840

: 00:43:49

women are like this and men are like this.

841

: 00:43:51

. That's why I think the more Bitcoiners

there are who can teach their, their

842

: 00:43:58

people who are like them, , like

teenagers can teach other teenagers,

843

: 00:44:03

or retired women or men can.

844

: 00:44:12

I mean, every, , niche or target group

has a certain language or certain

845

: 00:44:17

challenges that if just one of them

understands how Bitcoin fixes this,

846

: 00:44:22

they can, , convey this to their people.

847

: 00:44:25

Tali: That's so true.

848

: 00:44:26

Anja: I'm always like, you are a

node, you are a node in the network.

849

: 00:44:31

And you have, . job and an opportunity,

to, to communicate the value of Bitcoin.

850

: 00:44:37

,

Tali: That's what I have found just having hosted Orange Hatter interviews,

851

: 00:44:41

there's such a myriad of women types I

have been able to have conversation

852

: 00:44:47

with all different ages, like what

you were saying, the boomer age, to...

853

: 00:44:52

Teenagers to people who, have a

professional background, people who are

854

: 00:44:57

blue collar in their background and , all

different cultural backgrounds and Europe,

855

: 00:45:02

Africa, Asia, all these different places.

856

: 00:45:04

And like you said, not everybody's

going to resonate with you or me,

857

: 00:45:08

but they'll resonate with somebody.

858

: 00:45:10

so everybody's voice is important

and everybody's voice counts.

859

: 00:45:14

So, yeah, I'm really glad.

860

: 00:45:16

I'm totally on board.

861

: 00:45:18

.

Anja: Yeah.

862

: 00:45:18

Yeah.

863

: 00:45:18

Everybody needs to hear this in

a language they can understand.

864

: 00:45:22

And there are only certain people

who will speak their language.

865

: 00:45:26

So yeah, I speak the language of certain

type of people, you speak another one.

866

: 00:45:31

So the more we are, the better.

867

: 00:45:33

Tali: Yeah, for sure.

868

: 00:45:34

What would you say to women who are

sitting on the fence and just kind of

869

: 00:45:39

waiting, waiting to see if they should

hop into this whole crazy Bitcoin train?

870

: 00:45:45

, what would you say to them?

871

: 00:45:47

Anja: I mean, there's a

reason why they're waiting.

872

: 00:45:49

Why?

873

: 00:45:49

Why?

874

: 00:45:49

It's not urgent yet for them.

875

: 00:45:51

So I can't say anything to

them except for once you are

876

: 00:45:55

ready and you want to learn more.

877

: 00:45:58

Come to me or find your teacher.

878

: 00:46:00

Find someone who you understand,

or read a book or whatever, , but

879

: 00:46:05

before they are ready, it's just

useless to, to try to push it on them.

880

: 00:46:11

Like you said before, the more we push,

the more resistance we create, , we just

881

: 00:46:15

need to let people know that we are there.

882

: 00:46:18

Yeah.

883

: 00:46:18

And if it's not me, I'm going to

send them to you or to someone else,

884

: 00:46:22

someone who speaks their language.

885

: 00:46:24

Tali: So how should people reach you?

886

: 00:46:25

Should they look for you on LinkedIn?

887

: 00:46:27

Anja: I am on LinkedIn and

I, this new thing that I'm

888

: 00:46:29

building is called Bitvocation.

889

: 00:46:32

That should be findable and my handle

everywhere on Twitter and Telegram

890

: 00:46:37

on YouTube is connect economy.

891

: 00:46:39

Right now, the one thing that I would

love to spread is the Bitvocation feed

892

: 00:46:44

on Telegram, which is the bot that

sends you all the latest job openings.

893

: 00:46:50

Tali: How do you find that?

894

: 00:46:51

Anja: Well, the link is t for telegram

dot me slash bit vocation feed.

895

: 00:47:00

When you're in telegram, it

should also be findable if you

896

: 00:47:04

just type it vocation feed.

897

: 00:47:06

.

Tali: So, oh, I can just join?

898

: 00:47:08

Anja: Yeah.

899

: 00:47:09

Tali: joined!

900

: 00:47:09

Anja: You're number 124.

901

: 00:47:11

Welcome.

902

: 00:47:12

Tali: Yay!

903

: 00:47:13

I'm going to have Scott sign in too.

904

: 00:47:16

Cool.

905

: 00:47:17

Anja: Yay.

906

: 00:47:20

.

Tali: Thanks for joining us today . If the discussion with our guests

907

: 00:47:23

resonated with you and you would

like to dive deeper into the world of

908

: 00:47:27

Bitcoin, don't miss out on joining the

Orange Hatter Women's Reading Club.

909

: 00:47:32

The meetup link is in the show notes.

910

: 00:47:34

Also, if there are women in your life

whom you think would both enjoy and

911

: 00:47:38

benefit from learning more about Bitcoin,

please share Orange Hatter with them.

912

: 00:47:42

Until next time, bye!