Episode 93

Elena - "A technology can be co-opted by a narrative or be co-opted by a special interest."

Bitcoin is not black and white, on the ground, it is always gray.

In this Orange Hatter episode, Elena, a first generation Venezuelan/Cuban American, discusses her interest in Bitcoin. She shares her journey into the understanding and adoption of Bitcoin which started with attending a digital currency class in grad school and leading a research paper on crypto-adoption in Venezuela. Elena strongly advocates Bitcoin as a transformative technology that fosters voluntary participation and consensus building. She also draws a parallel between Bitcoin and social change, highlighting how it can be an escape hatch for countries in economic crisis like Venezuela. However, Elena stresses on the importance of perspective and acknowledges the multi-faceted nature of such transformative technologies. Towards the end, Elena offers tips for women interested in Bitcoin, encouraging them to overcome intimidation, align exploration with personal interest, find friends in the sphere, and most importantly, realize that contributing to the Bitcoin conversation does not require complete buy-in.

00:03 Introduction and Overview

00:48 Welcome to Orange Hatter: A Bitcoin Retreat for Women

02:18 Interview with Elena: Personal Background

02:38 Elena's Cultural Background and Family Life

06:21 Elena's Perspective on Immigrant Communities

23:21 Elena's Journey into the World of Bitcoin

25:41 Elena's Research on Bitcoin Adoption in Venezuela

44:45 Elena's Advice for Women Interested in Bitcoin

49:20 Conclusion and Farewell

*** Check out the Orange Hatter Women's Retreat at www.orangehatter.com/yucatan ***

To learn more about Bitcoin: Join the Orange Hatter Women's Reading Club.  Please email to Tali@orangehatter.com for the private telegram group and zoom link.

HODL UP is available at www.freemarketkids.com.

Remember: Knowledge is empowerment! 🍊🎩

Mentioned in this episode:

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Transcript
Elena:

A Bitcoiner adage, fix the money, save the world.

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If it was that simple I think that

would be an awesome circumstance,

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but I just suspect that it's

more complicated than that.

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The bigger narrative around Venezuela

in particular is truly heartbreaking

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collapse of a country, of an economy

and a huge diaspora of people who

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have had to leave their country.

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When I talk to my parents and

my family about Venezuela,

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that's what we talk about.

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That issue is harder to define,

harder to solve, harder to talk about.

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And this interesting

technology is the footnote.

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But the bigger story is what happened

to this country and what does this

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look like for the next generation?

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Tali: Hey everybody.

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Welcome to Orange Hatter.

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Aleia: Hello listeners.

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If you're a woman in the Bitcoin space,

looking for a transformative getaway,

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then today's feature is just for you.

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We've tailored an exclusive

retreat designed for rejuvenation

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connection and empowerment

specifically for women like you.

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Picture this mornings that

begin with yoga by the ocean.

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Days filled with the inspiring

beauty of nature and conversations

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with fellow Bitcoin enthusiasts that

turned into lasting friendships.

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This retreat is not just

a break from your routine.

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It's a leap forward for

your spirit and career.

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But it's more than

relaxation and networking.

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We're actively supporting local

Bitcoin circular economies.

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Your participation means contributing to

real world change, connecting you with

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the impact of Bitcoin beyond the screen.

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This is an opportunity to step

away from the daily grind to

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recharge and to return inspired.

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Whether you're deep into your Bitcoin

journey or just starting this retreat

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will offer you valuable insights,

support, and a renewed sense of purpose.

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Ready to be part of

this unique experience.

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Visit www.orange hatter.com

forge slash Yucatan.

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Now to learn more and reserve

your spot spaces are limited.

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As we aim to create an intimate and

impactful experience for each attendee.

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Don't miss this chance to

recharge, connect, and contribute.

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Join us.

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Let's make this retreat a

milestone in your Bitcoin journey.

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Thank you for tuning in and

here's to empowering your

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path in the world of Bitcoin.

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We can't wait to welcome you.

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Tali: Hi, Elena.

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Thank you so much for

joining us on Orange Hatter.

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It's awesome to have

you on the show today.

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Elena: Thank you for having me, Tali.

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I cannot wait to jump

into this discussion.

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I've been listening to Orange

Hatter, and I'm just really

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grateful for the opportunity to

share my story with you guys.

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Tali: Awesome.

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Let's go over your personal background.

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What would you like to

share with our audience?

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Elena: Yeah, I'll start with

a little bit of background.

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So I grew up in Texas.

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I have lived in California and New York

for school, and I recently moved back to

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Texas so that my family and my daughter,

we could be closer to our extended family.

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So a little bit about me.

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I don't come from a technical

background, even though I work in

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this pretty technical industry.

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I studied liberal arts and I have a

passion for the humanities, languages,

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history all of those types of things.

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And so that's my educational background.

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And then also from a professional

background, it's a little

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all over the board as well.

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So after college, I started

working in a non profit.

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I did that for a few years.

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And then I went to grad school and

now I work in product marketing.

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Then I've mostly worked in product

marketing and the blockchain Bitcoin,

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what people call web three industry.

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That's a little bit about my personal

and professional background, some

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things that I like to add, I'm

a Capricorn and yeah going out,

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having fun with friends and family.

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Those are mostly the things that

bring me a lot of energy and joy.

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Tali: So you grew up in Texas.

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What was it like?

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Which part of Texas did you grow up?

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And we can stay really general,

not necessarily the city name, and

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then, is it okay if I ask you about

your family's culture background?

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Elena: Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Tali: okay.

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So can you describe a little

bit about the way you grew up?

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Maybe just a little bit on your

family life and help us understand

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better where you're coming from?

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Elena: So my my family

is Cuban and Venezuelan.

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My dad's from Cuba, but

he grew up in Venezuela.

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And then my mom's side of the family

is Venezuelan, so me and my brothers

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were all first generation Americans.

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We grew up in Houston, Texas,

which is a very kind of culturally

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and ethnically diverse city.

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It's a large, spread out city.

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So growing up , having this English at

school, Spanish at home, bi cultural

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experience was really special.

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At the time, I didn't

realize how special it was.

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As I've gotten older, especially now

that I have a kid yeah, you just realize

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it's a really enriching thing to to

celebrate or to lean back on, and it

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helps me connect with other people.

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I've connected with folks who especially

in the Bitcoin ecosystem, you

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can connect across borders because

you have a cross border experience.

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So I speak Spanish at home.

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It's easier to connect with people

in Latin America or to learn about

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how people use type of technology,

but this one in particular.

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So yeah, growing up with a Venezuelan

and Cuban background was pretty cool.

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And then in Houston, there's just

like such a huge breadth of different

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ethnicities or immigrant populations, so

Houston has a huge Vietnamese community,

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Houston has an awesome food scene,

Houston has so much, I got, we can make

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this a podcast all about Houston, I'm

also very in my feels about it because

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we recently moved back But it was an

awesome tapestry to, to grow up in.

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And I think helped shape how I approach

different things or how I look into

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learning new things going forward.

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I feel like I have a curiosity

and open mindedness that I

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try to keep in adulthood.

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It was one of those things you

have as a kid and you just have to

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hold onto it as long as you can.

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Tali: Being an immigrant and a first

generation American as well I have found

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that the immigrant community has a very

particular way of looking at money and

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financial success and how to get there.

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For example you would see, I'm Chinese but

the example I'm going to give is Korean.

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So the Koreans would come over to the

country and they will be multifamilies

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forming a community and supporting

each other to start entrepreneur

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endeavors all around the city.

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And in the beginning, you don't

really see them, but suddenly

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it would feel like overnight and

they're just popping up everywhere.

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Like their business success is so

visible, you know, everybody's driving

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around in Mercedes Benz and they, they

work so closely as a group, rather

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than the families coming over to the

States and each forming their own

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household, they really work together.

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So is, and I feel like even though they

sacrifice independence, which is so

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valued in the American society, they

end up having the ability to enjoy more

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independence down the road, because they

give that up in the beginning, and then

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you several years in a row, suddenly

they're all financially set to then

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create their pocket of independence.

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Does that make sense?

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Is that something that you

personally experienced or maybe

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witnessed when you're growing up?

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Elena: Yeah.

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That's an interesting,

so when I was growing up.

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It's not so I will say Venezuela has had

such a painful history as of late with

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financial crises and maybe humanitarian

crises over the last maybe 10 years.

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When I was growing up, Venezuela was not

at that level, and so most of my family

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was still in Venezuela, and we were the

weird ones that were over here in the

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United States and so while I think the

The anecdote you shared is probably true.

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It wasn't necessarily something

that I experienced firsthand.

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Cause it's not like now where there

is a wave of Venezuelan immigrants.

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And I do feel like there is a strong.

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In places like Houston or Miami, there's a

strong Venezuelan community that supports

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one another but growing up it wasn't as

pronounced, at least in my experience.

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What I do think as you were

talking, this is what made me think.

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It made me think of more than

the collective versus individual

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or collectivist and sovereign

or individual experience.

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It's more, I think, for me, having

perspective of what it's like to

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live outside of the United States.

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I think when folks Maybe talk about what's

going on in a particular community or

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in a particular city or in a particular

country, especially in the United States.

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If you've only grown up here it's really

hard to have empathy or understanding

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for what it feels like elsewhere.

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And so when immigrants or people who,

yeah when immigrants come to United

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States, that hunger to succeed and

that very laser focused work ethic is

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probably motivated by the experience that

they are coming from or leaving from.

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And if you've only ever grown up in

the United States, of course, there

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are folks here who are super hungry

and super driven and super committed.

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But sometimes I laugh when folks

talk about the strength of the

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dollar or, crime on the streets.

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Those things definitely happen here.

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But it, If you've come from a place

like Venezuela, if you have family

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who are living in other places, it

just really puts that in perspective.

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And then one of the things that's always

stuck with me is how much my parents

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loved this country and how much they're

like, this is where your dreams come true.

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This is the place where

opportunities are made real.

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And so I think that That patriotism

and celebration and joy that an

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immigrant comes to the United

States, they have they maybe love it.

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Even more because they

appreciate how special it is.

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Whereas if you've grown up here,

you might not see that perspective.

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There's a quote, and I forget who the,

I feel like it's David Foster Wallace,

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but there's a quote about two fishes

swimming in a fish bowl and somebody

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swims by and says, Oh, how's the water?

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And the fish ask themselves what's water?

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Because if you're swimming in it, you

don't really realize what it is, because

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you've never known anything else.

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So yeah, that's what your observation

or your comment made me think of.

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Tali: Yeah.

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That is so true.

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When you were talking, I actually remember

this one story and it might offend

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some people, but I'm going to share it

anyway, but I, I just remember, I, I

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can't even remember if it was an article

or just a story that I heard, but it

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was a Taiwanese academic in the United

States answering somebody's question.

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And the person was accusing American

companies for utilizing sweatshops

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in Asia and how horrible it is that

these people have to work such long

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hours and the conditions are terrible.

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And, how dare we do that and

don't buy products from those

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companies, that kind of thing.

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And This particular Taiwanese

person said, yeah my aunt works at

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one of those factories in Taiwan.

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And yes, from your perspective is

terrible, but from her perspective,

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her only other option is prostitution.

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And so you can't always judge a situation

from one side of the coin because to

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her, that's sweat shop, yes, it's tough.

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Yes, it's not great.

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But in her experience, it's a thousand

times better than the alternative.

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And if we just say across the

board, Oh, that's terrible for him.

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Humanitarian reasons don't ever

buy from this company because

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they use sweatshops like that.

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That's a very narrow view

of right and wrong, so

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Elena: Yeah, it makes me think of the

the truest luxury the only luxury really

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is is choice, like having the option.

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And what might sound in the United States,

the perspective you just shared implies

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that a person as a consumer has a choice.

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And if you're Comfortable enough off

and you have a choice between buying

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something that's made ethically that

source locally I'm sorry, that's

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four times as expensive as something

that you would get at a big box store.

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And so imposing a value set.

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That's based on an assumption

that everybody has the same choice

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is messed up because not, we

don't all have the same choice.

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And like the more choice or the

more optionality you have, the more

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privilege you have, the more, that's,

those are all the values that we

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talk about, like freedom liberty, all

that is just saying you have a choice.

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And so people who don't have a

choice typically don't have the

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freedom to move, or the liberty to

choose, or the freedom to associate.

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So yeah, that, that is, and that, I

also think that goes back to perspective

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if you have no idea that you, there

are people in your own community who

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don't have the choice between, buying

a vegan, organic, locally sourced,

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delicious croissant as opposed to

whatever is the most affordable option.

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That also makes me think of narratives

around food and what's good for you

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and what's bad for you and sometimes

the only option that you have is

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not the option that's the best

for you, but that's what you got.

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That's the option you have.

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Tali: yeah, for sure.

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I wish I could remember the sources of

where I've read these things, but like

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a story just popped into my head again.

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And it was, yeah.

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Somewhere I saw it was pictures of

people right now, modern people

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living on the Indian reservations.

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Elena: Huh.

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Tali: and they have a lot of issues

with alcoholism and drug use, but they

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also have a ton of issues with obesity.

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And they

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Elena: interesting

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Tali: eat a lot of charity food items

and by necessity, because they're

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being shipped in, they are in cans,

and they are drinking free sodas and

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they're eating canned vegetables and

canned meat and things like that.

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And Like you're saying, it's

wonderful to have the choice to

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say, I'm not going to buy canned

food because that's not good for me.

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I'm going to buy fresh

food, but it's not always.

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possible.

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And then , on the other hand, I want to

share a different place where I heard

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someone say she's an energy teacher and

she had, she was conducting a workshop and

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this man came up to her from the back of

the room and he was in tattered clothing.

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You can tell he was homeless,

sores everywhere, gaunt

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and his skin color was gray.

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And you can just tell that he was probably

eating out of garbage cans, the garbage

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dump and for that man, he doesn't have a

choice to eat better in order to improve

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his health, but he showed up at the

workshop because he wanted a better life.

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And the teacher said to him without

making any changes while you're eating

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the food, wherever you're getting it

from, whether it's from the garbage dump

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or somebody's handing it to you, you say

a blessing and you thank you give thanks

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for the food and you bless the food and

then you eat it and then, okay, so this

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is a crazy story, but a year later,

of course he shows up again, right?

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And the teacher sees him, he walks

up to her, same tattered clothes,

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but she said I couldn't recognize

him because he had changed so much.

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He looked so healthy.

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You would have thought that he was,

he had changed his diet completely,

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that he found a job, a place to stay,

and now he's eating amazing food.

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And.

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That was not the case at all.

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He was still eating from the garbage dump,

but he was giving blessings to his food.

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And he was, and I'm not saying

we shouldn't help people

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who are in bad situations.

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I'm not saying that at all.

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I'm just saying like what you're saying,

the choice sometimes is more subtle.

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, in this man's case, his choice was

to give blessing to what he had.

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And it changed his health status without

anything else in his life changing.

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And it's, I think it's just important

for us to recognize that, like you

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were saying not everybody has the

same range of choices and options

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that we would love for them to have.

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In today's society, the

way that it is right now,

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Elena: Yeah, it makes me think of there.

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There's this book.

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I read a few years ago called Finite and

Infinite Games and when I first read the

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book, I was like, oh I don't know if I

agree with any of this because it was

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but it was such a fun read because I

really didn't agree with it, and you know

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when you're like, I'm gonna, I'm gonna,

it's like eating broccoli if you don't

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like broccoli I'm gonna expose myself

to something that I'm not that it's not

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in my wheelhouse or I don't understand

or quite agree with it right away.

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But the whole theory, or the whole premise

of the book is that everything is a game.

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Some games are finite, like a game

of chess, or a game of HODL UP

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and then other games are infinite.

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So it's playing make believe, or Dungeons

and Dragons, or something like that.

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And he, or the author of the

book, was basically saying you

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choose the game that you play.

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And you might not choose the rules

if you're playing with other people,

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but you fundamentally the main

thing that people have is choice.

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You might have a lot of choice

or you might have a little choice

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depending on what your background is.

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I think the thing that was

controversial for me is that he

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was saying , you can choose to

be a mom or you can choose to be.

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And I was like biologically, no,

you either did that thing or you

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didn't do that thing or you have

a kid or you don't have a kid.

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But the concept was just like, even in,

in a situation where you don't feel like

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you have any control or autonomy, you

can find something to choose on your own.

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So the anecdote you gave about a

man choosing to bless his food.

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And how that impacted his lived experience

yeah, and I also think that framework

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has stuck with me so much because it

also helps me understand , oh, if I

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disagree with somebody or if I don't.

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If somebody's doing something that

I really can't understand, sometimes

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it helps me just think what's the

game that they're trying to play?

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And how is that different than

the game that I'm trying to play?

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And maybe, as maybe it's okay that

we just live on the same earth, and

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we are consuming the same resources,

and we're occupying the same air, and

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we play different games, and we don't

need to be playing the same game.

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If you have a chance to check it out,

it's not a very long book, but it was

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definitely a mind bender in that it

helped me really understand or gave me

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a tool to help understand when I strongly

disagreed with somebody or strongly

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felt differently than somebody else.

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Just going back to thinking, okay,

they're probably playing a different

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game than I am or they probably have a

different understanding of the rules.

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Something like that.

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Tali: I'm going to connect that to

parenting just a little bit because

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Scott and I just did our episode on

homeschooling and you have a toddler

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and it just, I love that framework

because in my mind, I, I frame it

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as be careful of what you're assuming

when you discipline your child, right?

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Because If you assume your child is

willfully resisting your instruction,

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you're going to have one set of reaction.

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But if you assume that your child simply

just did not understand the instruction,

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you will have a different way of reacting.

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And so going back to what you're saying

about playing the different, the games,

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like what, if you have a two year

old and you said, don't touch that.

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And the child touches that, what

game is the child playing that is

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different from the game you are playing,

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Elena: That's totally right.

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And I also think you're assuming did

they remember that you said that earlier?

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And they probably didn't.

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And did they have the same

lived experience that you did?

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Probably not.

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You're telling them don't open the

oven because you know the oven is hot.

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For them, it's oh, this is a door.

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I'm just going to see, peek what's inside.

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Yeah, it is.

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It is a a trip, but I use that all the

time, just thinking about is this a

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finite game or is an infinite game?

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And what game are we playing together?

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We first met at Bitcoin Park, I I

maybe don't want to get ahead of our

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conversation, but just like I was going

into that community, very much feeling

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like an outsider, feeling like an

observer, and I almost was like, okay, am

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I gonna, how am I gonna present myself am

I just a person, or do I tell people that

345

:

I've worked at other ecosystems, is that

gonna make people feel some kind of ways,

346

:

and all of, anytime you feel yourself

posturing, or charading or being, , trying

347

:

to think about, , how to present yourself,

it is, In a sense, like you're playing a

348

:

game or you're trying to figure out what

the rules of the game are so that you can

349

:

be successful in whatever interaction.

350

:

I think about that all the time.

351

:

Tali: Yeah.

352

:

Bitcoin park, I think for a woman,

especially coming alone, like you didn't

353

:

come with a friend or a partner or

something to come in alone you really

354

:

have to observe to figure out how to,

make your way into a group of people

355

:

having a conversation, who's sitting by

themselves and it is a strategic thing.

356

:

Elena: Yeah and I'll say I I didn't

go alone because I was like, I'm going

357

:

to bring a friend of mine and she's

actually been on the podcast as well.

358

:

I brought my friend Marina and I

was like, you need to come with me.

359

:

I feel like we we are stronger

together and it's not out of fear.

360

:

It's more just this is unknown and having

a sounding board to just be like, okay,

361

:

what was interesting to you about this?

362

:

Or can I ask you a dumb question?

363

:

Did you get what they were talking about?

364

:

I didn't get it at all.

365

:

So yeah, I, Having friends who know

you and then understanding together,

366

:

like, all right, this is the lay of

the land is yeah, it was definitely

367

:

a fun weekend and I had a great time.

368

:

But I definitely appreciated having

a buddy there who at least could help

369

:

orient the, all the different navigate

all the different opportunities or

370

:

all the different topics that came up.

371

:

So yeah.

372

:

Tali: Yeah, I'm really glad

you brought her too, it was so

373

:

nice to meet the two of you.

374

:

And I think when we met, was it in March?

375

:

Or April, I don't remember now.

376

:

It was a few months ago,

377

:

Elena: It was in the spring.

378

:

Yeah.

379

:

Tali: yeah, and Scott and I were

really new to the space and we were

380

:

trying to figure out where we fit in.

381

:

I'm so glad we met you.

382

:

So let's hop right into

talking about Bitcoin then.

383

:

How did you come across this

weird thing called Bitcoin?

384

:

Elena: Yeah.

385

:

So I guess I had heard about it, maybe

tangentially, but the real beginning

386

:

for me was I was in grad school.

387

:

I was in business school at NYU and I

signed up for a digital currency class.

388

:

This was around 2017, 2018.

389

:

And that was really it for me.

390

:

It was such a cool opportunity.

391

:

We had speakers come in from

all different backgrounds.

392

:

I sat in the front row.

393

:

I was like Johnny on the spot, did all

the readings, did all the homework.

394

:

I've never been that diligent of

a student in my life, but I just

395

:

found the topic really interesting

and I feel really fortunate that my

396

:

exposure to the technology was in

a very guided classroom setting.

397

:

I feel like a lot of folks are self

taught and so they discover this or hear

398

:

about it at a cocktail party and then

they go into the big great unknown or

399

:

the internet and then just try to piece

together what sources should I trust.

400

:

I had a syllabus and I had readings

One of the people who came to speak at

401

:

our class, his name is Scott Stornetta

and he's cited in the original Bitcoin

402

:

whitepaper, his timelock hash algorithm

is part of what inspired the whitepaper.

403

:

So just having that I feel like I got

a good mix of cypherpunk history, just

404

:

enough about how the technology works

under the hood, and then finance, those

405

:

are, I think, the holy trinity of

things that are important to understand

406

:

in order to understand or put into

context, how this technology works.

407

:

And then for that class We had to do

a final research paper, and I chose

408

:

to do a report on crypto adoption in

Venezuela, which is where my family

409

:

is originally from, and in the process

of doing that research paper, it

410

:

really helped me see what was The

multiple sides, multiple perspectives

411

:

as it relates to this technology.

412

:

So got to interview Bitcoin miners

in Venezuela around:

413

:

just hearing their stories about how

this really was life changing or a

414

:

meaningful kind of lifeboat or escape

hatch for hyperinflation and I think

415

:

those narratives are very common now,

but hearing it directly from somebody

416

:

who actually lived it, it was really

transformative and powerful for me.

417

:

And then on the other side, you

definitely hear about predatory

418

:

projects that are marketing

financial tools to communities that

419

:

have limited financial literacy.

420

:

And that's not just projects not

associated with Bitcoin that is included.

421

:

That's the whole industry.

422

:

Bitcoin included.

423

:

And so I think being able to see okay,

this is a tool and people are going

424

:

to use that tool, however, for good or

for not good reasons, I think was the

425

:

best launching point for me to decide

I'm passionate about this technology.

426

:

I want to dedicate the

rest of my career to this.

427

:

And I'm not a blind acolyte, I want

to be, ingesting this information in a

428

:

thoughtful and balanced way, and I want

to be able to speak truth to power and

429

:

not be afraid to ask difficult questions.

430

:

So That was my very beginning.

431

:

And then when I graduated, I've

worked in a few different protocols

432

:

in the last five or so years,

gosh, it feels like a long time.

433

:

So yeah, I've worked in

the Ethereum ecosystem.

434

:

I worked in Zcash for a little bit, and

now I'm at a developer tooling company

435

:

that does developer tools for Bitcoin

layers, stacks specifically, but other

436

:

Bitcoin projects as well, like Ordinals.

437

:

Tali: So I'm curious why you were

so passionate about learning about

438

:

cryptocurrency in the first place

that you would sit in the front of

439

:

the room and do all the homework

440

:

Elena: Yeah, I'll start by saying

my life before business school, I

441

:

worked in a non profit public media.

442

:

So I worked at an NPR PBS affiliate

station and like Sesame Street.

443

:

That's my jam.

444

:

That is very near and dear to my heart.

445

:

And I think I've always just been

like drawn to the idea of public

446

:

goods And this it may be a little

bit more on the granola side of

447

:

things like just shared resources.

448

:

Why can't we all just get along?

449

:

And then I went to business school

thinking , okay, I'm gonna work

450

:

at a big bad cable company.

451

:

I'm gonna make some money.

452

:

I'm tired of the nonprofit life

and for better, for worse, just

453

:

the kind of traditional industries

were not that inspiring to me.

454

:

So it just seemed oh, okay, the

media business models are based on

455

:

advertising or subscription models.

456

:

And those don't seem like they're

adding a whole lot of good in the world.

457

:

And then if you look on the financial

side of things, like maybe working

458

:

at a CPG or consumer packaged good I

think there are ways in which that can

459

:

be a very meaningful career for folks,

but it just didn't resonate for me.

460

:

And then I learned about crypto or

blockchain or Bitcoin or whatever the

461

:

word is that, that resonates the most

with an individual that I learned about.

462

:

And I was like, here's something

that's totally different.

463

:

It's just way out of left field.

464

:

It's never been done before.

465

:

And then I think for me, the

thing that really got me is that.

466

:

at its core, this technology

is just really good at getting

467

:

people to agree with one another.

468

:

It's a consensus building mechanism.

469

:

So with Bitcoin, you're creating

a financial incentive for everyone

470

:

to have the same proof or ledger,

like the same shared history.

471

:

So like we all agree that

you have 5 in your wallet.

472

:

I have 2 in my wallet, or we all agree

that this transaction happened here.

473

:

And the way that we reward every new

transaction added to the chain is with 6.

474

:

25 Bitcoin for every block, . That

idea was really compelling for me.

475

:

And one thing that I think about a

lot is So if you look at the whole arc

476

:

of human history, and this is where

I get a little too liberal artsy, but

477

:

if you'll humor me if you look at the

whole arc of human history, and you look

478

:

at the greatest wonders of the world,

you have things like the Great Wall of

479

:

China, the Pyramids of Giza, and so on.

480

:

Most of those human accomplishments

were made under coercion.

481

:

People were forced to build those things.

482

:

The cool thing about the internet

and as an extension, the money of

483

:

the internet, which is Bitcoin.

484

:

And then there's also

other types of projects.

485

:

But the cool thing about the internet

in general is that it's pretty

486

:

much a voluntary participation.

487

:

People decide to interact with a network.

488

:

People decide to maintain

the security of the network.

489

:

And just the fact that it's a consensus

mechanism that's completely voluntary.

490

:

and yet very resilient and

very secure and very powerful.

491

:

, I feel like that's where it got me hooked.

492

:

Tali: Yeah, that is so cool.

493

:

It's amazing that you had that

opportunity and you took it by the horns.

494

:

And now I just want to ask you

to share a little bit more about

495

:

that thesis paper you wrote.

496

:

You went into a little bit

about the Bitcoin miners.

497

:

What else you discover in the

process of doing that paper?

498

:

Elena: Yeah, so for folks who might

not be as familiar with the Venezuelan

499

:

kind of narrative, Venezuela for

most of the 20th century was the

500

:

most wealthy country in Latin America

and is an oil country by and large.

501

:

So in the 50s and 60s, a lot of

Venezuelan wealth came from oil

502

:

and that continued until today.

503

:

And so when my parents were growing

up, Venezuela was like this.

504

:

It was almost like a mythical land of

just so much prosperity so much goodness.

505

:

So many amazing things.

506

:

And then When I was growing up, we would

go there every summer and even during

507

:

Christmas vacations or holiday vacations

and just being able to see yeah, how cool

508

:

of a country it was or how cool it was

to grow up in Venezuela, had very high

509

:

literacy rates, the population regardless

of socioeconomic background, was largely

510

:

educated or largely had access to public

resources or good public infrastructure.

511

:

And then that changed in 1999 2000.

512

:

Hugo Chavez came was elected

president and that began a

513

:

history of decline in the country.

514

:

Okay, so there's a little bit

of background for folks who have

515

:

never heard about Venezuela.

516

:

That's Basically 1960s to 2000.

517

:

And then, so what made Venezuela this

perfect storm for crypto adoption in

518

:

basically 2012, 20, 2012 to 2016, 17

is that because it's an oil country

519

:

electricity and power was virtually free.

520

:

And so it became a very desirable place

or very affordable place to mine Bitcoin

521

:

and that's coupled with the fact that

after a few, almost a decade under

522

:

Chavez and then his predecessor, his

successor Maduro The money was mismanaged.

523

:

It went into a financial crisis a

few times, but:

524

:

of the worst financial crises of the

country in recent memory, and it was

525

:

coupled with a humanitarian crisis.

526

:

There wasn't enough food in the country.

527

:

It was really, really bad.

528

:

So it motivated a lot of people

um, to start adopting alternative

529

:

forms like cryptocurrencies

is basically the way to go.

530

:

So in researching this paper, I spoke

with a few Bitcoin miners, and then I

531

:

spoke with a few cryptocurrencies, Dash

was one of the projects at the time

532

:

that was one of the narratives was , if

crypto is going to take off or if Bitcoin

533

:

is going to take off, it's going to

take off in a country like Venezuela.

534

:

And it's a slightly different narrative

that you see today in oh we want

535

:

to create a circular economy where

people could just use Bitcoin, like

536

:

El Salvador, that is, is a totally

different approach, but it's I don't

537

:

know how to explain it maybe a similar

desire of we want to see this technology

538

:

get adopted as a means of exchange

or as the preferred form of money.

539

:

In Venezuela, it was against a backdrop

of There's a huge financial crisis and

540

:

humanitarian crisis that's motivating

people to find an alternative and today

541

:

It's more like there are folks who just

want to experiment or create something

542

:

new or something different So that's my

kind of naive observation But in doing the

543

:

research paper speaking with people who

were mining firsthand and then speaking

544

:

with just people who were interacting

with or discovering the different

545

:

technologies or the different currencies.

546

:

One of the things that really struck

me is something we talked about

547

:

early in our conversation, the

importance of having perspective.

548

:

So I come from the United States

in my mind if you work with the

549

:

government is bad, like Chavez

and Maduro evil people, horrible.

550

:

They're the reason we are in a

humanitarian and financial crisis, so

551

:

you're not supposed to talk to 'em ever.

552

:

And then some of the people I spoke with

were like, it's not that clear cut like

553

:

the government is definitely not great.

554

:

It's definitely bad.

555

:

And yet.

556

:

If you want to have access to a

cryptocurrency conference, that's going to

557

:

be put on by the government, or government

people will be there, so you can't, you

558

:

don't have the luxury of deciding to write

people off the country is not that big,

559

:

the community is not that big, so you will

be rubbing elbows with folks who you might

560

:

find otherwise very unsavory, and It was

just interesting, because I feel like if

561

:

you're from the outside looking in, it's

very easy to make things black and white.

562

:

And then when you talk to people who are

on the ground, everything seems gray.

563

:

well, How do you like Dash versus Bitcoin?

564

:

Or how do you decide if you work with

the government or against the government?

565

:

That to me was just a huge can of worms

that I wasn't anticipating I thought

566

:

it was just going to be a fun little

interview where people were telling about

567

:

how fun Bitcoin is and really it became a

way to talk about even other experiences

568

:

like I'm an American a Venezuelan

American but culturally and identity by

569

:

most of my experience is American and so

Being able to connect with Venezuelans in

570

:

a way that I hadn't before was yeah, it

was really a huge, for me, a huge outcome

571

:

of doing that research and at the time

it was almost a meme in cryptocurrency

572

:

or blockchain Bitcoin industry, like, if

you went to a conference in:

573

:

2018, every single panel would mention

hyperinflation, like in Venezuela, it

574

:

was just a standard use case that people

referred to and I found it to be pretty

575

:

powerful to really understand that most

folks Who were referring to that had

576

:

never spoken to someone from Venezuela.

577

:

And I think that is something that

I've been refer back to throughout, in

578

:

all of my professional experiences.

579

:

If we're going to talk about

remittances, somebody in the room

580

:

needs to have sent a remittance before.

581

:

Otherwise, if you've never experienced

the problem yourself, how are

582

:

you going to build an effective

product to solve that problem?

583

:

So that was another big learning

or big takeaway for me as a

584

:

result of that research paper.

585

:

Tali: I think you're so right in that

like we were talking about before

586

:

there's always two sides of the coins

and it's so easy for us to stand

587

:

on one side and go that's the right

way to look at it, but for people

588

:

looking at it from the other side,

they see a completely different image.

589

:

Interesting.

590

:

So what would you say so

that was:

591

:

What is it like now, if you were to

reference Venezuela and the use of

592

:

Bitcoin, how would you frame that now?

593

:

Elena: I think the way I feel most

comfortable framing it is I don't know,

594

:

I haven't at the point of time doing

that research I was speaking with 20

595

:

people and reading papers then double

checking across referencing sources.

596

:

I firmly believe that if you don't do

that level of attention to research.

597

:

You don't really know.

598

:

Anything you say is it has to

be taken with a grain of salt.

599

:

My anecdotal experience is that the

situation in Venezuela is not as

600

:

dire as it was in 2016, 2017, from a

financial and humanitarian perspective.

601

:

It's still really bad, but it's

not as bad as it was in:

602

:

And so the strong need for

an alternative like Bitcoin.

603

:

What that need was stronger in 2016 than

it is maybe today, although there are

604

:

still an active community of people who

are thinking about and exploring digital

605

:

currencies Bitcoin adoption in Venezuela.

606

:

One big challenge though, is that

the Maduro government, if I recall

607

:

correctly, started cracking down on

Bitcoin mining and you had to register

608

:

your miner, you have to register as

a miner with the government, and then

609

:

the government, there are anecdotes of

the government going to your house and

610

:

seizing your property and stuff like that.

611

:

The last I heard of that was around 2020.

612

:

And so I'm not sure, what

the situation is like today.

613

:

I follow a bunch of Venezuelans on

Twitter who are active Bitcoiners,

614

:

active in the cryptocurrency.

615

:

Mostly Bitcoiners, to be honest.

616

:

And I think somebody I was Following

his name is Javier Bastardo.

617

:

He posted just the other day, there's

a Venezuelan prison that burned down and

618

:

there were Bitcoin ASIC miners, in the

prison, and so not that I I share that

619

:

data point because it's what, but I don't

have any conclusions to draw from that.

620

:

Does that mean that people who were

wrongfully incarcerated had had a way of.

621

:

Generating income while they were

incarcerated or does that mean real

622

:

quote unquote bad guys were using Bitcoin?

623

:

Who knows it just shows you that there

is a level of penetration adoption in

624

:

the country that it's hard to ignore.

625

:

It's hard to down credit or downplay

but in terms of drawing a conclusion

626

:

from that It's really hard to do.

627

:

And that's where I think people who

work, people who are ideologically very

628

:

passionate about Bitcoin sometimes You

have to fight that urge of projecting

629

:

their narrative onto these are just

facts people are using this technology,

630

:

and then whether you want to paint it

in a certain way or draw conclusions

631

:

there's, it's important to be really

careful because just like this this

632

:

technology be used to enforce a very

positive and optimistic message.

633

:

Thank you.

634

:

Narrative that Bitcoin is an alternative.

635

:

Bitcoin is a way of escaping

oppressive networks.

636

:

I firmly believe that.

637

:

That's why people in Russia, that's

why people in People living under

638

:

oppressive regimes have a strong

interest in this technology.

639

:

But the opposite is, can be true as well.

640

:

And so just understanding how a technology

can be co opted by a narrative or

641

:

be co opted by a special interest.

642

:

Yeah, I'm rambling a little bit right now,

but I feel there's a lot of There's so

643

:

many different perspectives that I think

are important to mention, especially as

644

:

people are first starting to get into

this technology or into this industry.

645

:

A lot of times you ask yourself

what am I supposed to think?

646

:

What is the truth?

647

:

And it's just really

hard to pick one truth.

648

:

So yeah.

649

:

Tali: Yeah, I really appreciate your

perspective because you're right it

650

:

something can always be used for good

And for evil by different people and

651

:

different intentions, if you don't

mind, I'd love to ask you about your

652

:

parents, because you mentioned that

they were the odd ones that left

653

:

Venezuela to come to the United States.

654

:

And then while they were here, that's

when you had Chavez go into power.

655

:

And then the decline that started, how

do they feel about what's happening

656

:

in reference to this new technology?

657

:

Bitcoin slash cryptocurrency

slash blockchain.

658

:

Elena: Yeah, so I remember when I

was in grad school and I was first

659

:

taking these classes I couldn't

shut up about Bitcoin And I couldn't

660

:

shut up about this blockchain stuff.

661

:

And maybe people , maybe

you Tali can resonate.

662

:

When coin price is up, everybody's asking

you , Hey, I heard you were into this.

663

:

Can you tell me what's it about?

664

:

Is it really real?

665

:

When the coin price is down,

nobody wants to ask you about it.

666

:

The way my parents reacted when I first

started to ask my family because at

667

:

first I asked my family hey Do you

know anybody who's mining crypto or do

668

:

you know anybody who's mining Bitcoin?

669

:

I'm doing a research paper and I want

to learn more They were very skeptical.

670

:

They're like this sounds Weird and

different and I'm unfamiliar I think

671

:

that The main thing is just I have been

pretty I've had a conviction that this

672

:

is the industry that I want to work in,

and I've been pretty steadfast in that I

673

:

have worked in it for a few years, I've

worked at a few different companies,

674

:

and so I think now my parents really see

this as this is a new technology, and we

675

:

don't know that much about it but there

it is In terms of how this technology,

676

:

or Bitcoin in particular, relates to

Venezuela today I don't want to speak

677

:

for my parents, but my impression is

that Venezuela just has bigger problems.

678

:

And the problems are this just truly

heartbreaking collapse of a country, of

679

:

an economy And a huge diaspora of people

who have had to leave their country.

680

:

I think when at least I talk to

my parents and my family about

681

:

Venezuela, that's what we talk about.

682

:

And the, this interesting technology

that happens to be part of my

683

:

day to day work is the footnote.

684

:

But the bigger story is what happened

to this country and how can we what

685

:

is, what does this look for my kid's

generation or for the next generation?

686

:

It has helped me understand, like

learning more about Bitcoin and

687

:

learning has helped me just learn more

about how money works and that money

688

:

is in and of itself a technology.

689

:

So that's informed a lot of

the ways I think about and

690

:

talk about money in general.

691

:

But I, yeah, I feel like the bigger

narrative around Venezuela in particular

692

:

is just there's clearly a bigger issue

here and that issue is harder to define,

693

:

harder to solve, harder to talk about.

694

:

If it was as simple as man, fix the money.

695

:

So I feel like that's a Bitcoiner

adage, fix the money, save the world.

696

:

If it was that simple I think that

would be an awesome circumstance, but I

697

:

just suspect that it's more complicated

than that, and being honest about

698

:

that is, is at least in the case of

Venezuela, is probably, yeah, that's

699

:

been the most consistent way that I've

heard it talked about in my family.

700

:

Tali: Yeah.

701

:

Thank you so much for that perspective.

702

:

What would you say to women

who are sitting on the fence

703

:

right now about Bitcoin?

704

:

Elena: Oh man, okay, I have a bunch of

little nuggets so I will list them off.

705

:

And then I want to go

into them one by one.

706

:

But I would say that there are probably

four key things that have helped

707

:

me and four key things that I would

really encourage women on the fence

708

:

about Bitcoin to keep top of mind.

709

:

The first is follow your interests.

710

:

If you're interested in politics, or

if you're interested in art and design,

711

:

or if you're interested in in food

sovereignty, or if you're interested in

712

:

political ideology, chances are there

is a Bitcoin connection to whatever

713

:

you're passionate about, game design,

chances are If you are passionate about

714

:

something, somebody has put Bitcoin on it.

715

:

And so the more you can follow your

interests, I think the easier it is

716

:

to navigate an unfamiliar technology.

717

:

And the easier it is to just

put it into the context that's

718

:

already familiar with you.

719

:

So that would be goal number one.

720

:

The second one is find a friend, buddy up.

721

:

My cryptocurrency or Bitcoin friends

are the . I cherish those friendships,

722

:

and those are folks that I still call for

advice, I still call for perspective hey,

723

:

what do you think about this new thing?

724

:

What do you think about crazy ordinals?

725

:

Are we into that or are we not into that?

726

:

And it's just a helpful sounding board to,

I think the Twitter in particular can be

727

:

really noisy, and people can feel, have

very strong opinions and feelings, and

728

:

people who you respect and admire can say

things that you don't totally agree with.

729

:

And so having somebody that you trust,

that you can ask the stupid questions

730

:

with, or have hot takes oh, you know

what, I really didn't agree with what

731

:

he said that is invaluable because

it helps you also find your north.

732

:

You know what, I don't really want to be,

I don't really think about it this way.

733

:

I prefer to think about it that way.

734

:

So find your friend is the second one.

735

:

Third one, probably in my mind, the

most important if you're sitting on

736

:

the fence about Bitcoin, it can be

intimidating and you can handle it.

737

:

I, I find that is to me the

biggest thing to overcome.

738

:

I don't have a technical background.

739

:

I don't have a financial background and

yet I've worked in this industry for

740

:

multiple years and I feel very confident

in the perspective I have now built up.

741

:

But that's cause I was able to overcome

this fear of the unknown or this

742

:

insecurity that I'm not smart enough

or I'm not good enough or whatever.

743

:

If you are intimidated by dipping

your toes into this pool just

744

:

know that you can handle it.

745

:

And it the industry or this community

will be so much better off with you in it.

746

:

And once you overcome that

fear, there's so many other

747

:

doors that will be open to you.

748

:

I feel like that's when I hear stories

of other women talking about why

749

:

they're so passionate about Bitcoin.

750

:

A lot of times it's I got into Bitcoin

and I was just interested in it and

751

:

I didn't know anything about it.

752

:

I overcame that fear.

753

:

And now I do, and now I make smarter

financial decisions for my family, or

754

:

now I'm able to get out of relationships

that weren't serving me or whatever, I'm

755

:

able to renegotiate different boundaries.

756

:

I think a lot of times that's

a similar narrative arc.

757

:

So it's intimidating for sure.

758

:

I'm not going to say Oh

yeah, it's a cakewalk.

759

:

Bitcoin is super easy to understand.

760

:

But you can absolutely handle it.

761

:

And once you do, you'll be stronger

for it and the industry will be

762

:

stronger with your perspective.

763

:

And then the last thing, and I'll

say this for anyone who's listening

764

:

who really loves being on the fence,

who really likes being in the middle.

765

:

You can explore this technology.

766

:

And it doesn't have to be your identity,

it doesn't have to be your religion, it

767

:

doesn't have to be your only interest.

768

:

Some folks, it is that for them,

and that's very inspiring, that's

769

:

very interesting it doesn't

have to be that way for you.

770

:

And for me, I'm very passionate

and curious about multiple

771

:

aspects of Bitcoin and multiple

aspects of this broader industry.

772

:

A lot of times I feel like folks opt

out or women opt out of the Bitcoin

773

:

particular conversation because

they feel , Oh, I'm not that intense

774

:

or I'm not that committed to it.

775

:

I'm not that bought in.

776

:

And you don't have to be that

singularly focused in order to add

777

:

value to the conversation in order

to participate in the conversation.

778

:

So that would be my last tip.

779

:

Tali: Awesome tips.

780

:

I love those tips.

781

:

Thank you so much.

782

:

They're so thoughtful.

783

:

You've just been absolutely amazing.

784

:

Thank you so much for sharing

your story and your perspectives.

785

:

I'm so glad you came on Orange Hatter.

786

:

Elena: Thank you for having me Tali and I

cannot wait to listen to future episodes.

787

:

So I'll stay tuned.

788

:

Tali: Thank you for

listening to this episode.

789

:

Did you enjoy it?

790

:

Wasn't our guest absolutely fabulous.

791

:

I just love every woman's

story on this show.

792

:

Everybody has a unique perspective

and yet, we all come to the same

793

:

place, which is Bitcoin is an

important part of our lives.

794

:

If this story has inspired you

and you would like to know more,

795

:

go to www.orangehatter.com.

796

:

Get involved.

797

:

Join and our reading group, send

me an email and introduce yourself.

798

:

I will be so happy to hear from you.

799

:

The best way you can support this

show is to spread the word Tell

800

:

every woman, you know, to listen in.

801

:

You never know how they will

be impacted by these stories.

802

:

I appreciate you so much.

803

:

See you next time.

804

:

Bye.

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About the Podcast

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Orange Hatter
Woman-to-Woman Bitcoin Conversations

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About your host

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Tali Lindberg

"Hello everyone, I'm Tali! If you had met me a few years back, you'd have found me in the thick of homeschooling my four incredible kids. That was my world for two decades, filled with lesson plans, school projects, and a whole lot of beautiful chaos. But once they all graduated, a new and unexpected journey began for me - in the world of Bitcoin.

The spark was lit by my husband, nudging me towards this peculiar thing known as Bitcoin. At first, I resisted. After all, the complexity of Bitcoin was intimidating and my plate was already quite full. But he persisted, and even went as far as creating a bitcoin-mining board game, HODL UP, to teach me what it was. Before I knew it, I was orange-pilled, and my curiosity was piqued. What started as a casual dip of my toes soon turned into a fascinating dive into Bitcoin. Like my homeschooling journey, I took it slow, one baby step at a time, learning and adapting as I delved deeper.

Fast-forward to today, I am absolutely thrilled to share my Bitcoin adventures with all you amazing and busy women out there through this podcast. I've made sure the episodes are bite-sized and easy to follow, perfect for your coffee breaks or while running errands. My goal? To share my experiences and the experiences of other women in Bitcoin in an engaging, easily digestible way. Don't let time constraints or technical jargon stop you from diving into Bitcoin. As your friendly guide, I hope to provide a grounded, relatable perspective to help you navigate the Bitcoin rabbit hole. So, here's to us exploring this thrilling digital frontier together!