Elly - What would you rather have access to in a hurricane, public transport or your own car?

Elly: 00:00:03

If you just want security of using a financial system that is not controlled by

2

: 00:00:08

any jurisdiction then Bitcoin is for you.

3

: 00:00:11

I like to compare it to using public

transport versus having your own car.

4

: 00:00:16

If there's a hurricane, you

really want to have your own car.

5

: 00:00:21

You don't want to wait for a bus

when there's a hurricane coming.

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: 00:00:27

Tali: Hey everybody.

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: 00:00:27

Welcome to Orange Hatter.

8

: 00:00:31

Aleia: Hello listeners.

9

: 00:00:32

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path in the world of Bitcoin.

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We can't wait to welcome you.

36

: 00:01:56

Tali: Hi, Ellie.

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Thank you so much for

joining us on Orange Hatter.

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I can't wait to dive into your

Bitcoin journey and find out

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all about your background.

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Welcome to the show.

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Elly: Thank you, Tali.

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I'm so glad to be here.

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Looking forward to our conversation.

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. Tali: Let's start by just sharing a little

bit about your background, where Did you

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grow up maybe your educational background,

professional, just a little bit.

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Elly: Okay, great.

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So I grew up in Germany.

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My mom and dad still live there.

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My siblings live in

Germany and Switzerland.

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I actually got to see them this summer,

which I'm really excited I got to do that.

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But I moved to Texas when I wanted

to pursue a PhD in nanotechnology

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and that was 15 years ago.

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So 15 years ago, I moved to Texas

to pursue a PhD in nanotechnology.

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And that's where I met my husband

and now we have two children

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and we still live in Texas.

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Nanotechnology is really

exciting to me still.

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I finished my degree, but I could

talk about nanotechnology all day

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because there is just something

exciting about how the world works at

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a scale where it's smaller than what

you can see in an optical microscope.

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But you can still make things

And measure things and observe

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things about what you made.

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So I innovated in nanotechnology.

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I made computer chips out of

materials other than silicon.

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So most of our phones and computers

have silicon chips in them.

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And I was motivated by just the

need for innovation in that space.

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We just need better chips and

better technologies that are not

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necessarily made out of silicon.

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So I made graphene based chips.

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And graphene is a material that is

made out of carbon and it's just a

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single atomic layer of carbon and

conducts electricity really well.

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And you can make transistors out of it.

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And a transistor is just a switch.

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It can generate a zero into one.

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And that's all that computers

know, zeros and ones.

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I learned about Bitcoin

during graduate school.

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And I learned about it just

the same way that people learn

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about it now through articles.

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I believe it was a Slashdot

article at the time.

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Just learned that there was a

white paper that someone suggested

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to make scarce digital asset.

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So you know how all the files

on a computer are infinitely

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copyable and people try to enforce

copyright, but you really can't.

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So Bitcoin just cleverly used hash

functions to create something that

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cannot be multiplied in all infinity.

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That there is a limited amount of it.

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And it's not that the

file itself is limited.

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You can infinitely copy the Bitcoin

blockchain, but what is limited is the

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information in it is the ledger itself.

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And how transactions are recorded

in it in a way that the transactions

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can't be faked or copied or multiplied.

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I just, at the time, I

thought it was really clever.

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I thought it was really unique.

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I had never seen anything

like that before.

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I hadn't quite understood all

the implications or all the

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properties of it at the time.

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But.

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It's just like any other innovation

or technology where you think,

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Huh, this is really interesting.

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Maybe I should look into

it a little bit later.

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Gavin Andreessen set up a Bitcoin faucet

where anybody could go to that website

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and as long as they have a wallet with

a valid Bitcoin address, they can get

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free Bitcoin sent to their address.

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There's nothing to lose there, so I

decided to take advantage of that.

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That's how I got my first

Bitcoin on my wallet.

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The wallet came with a setting

where you can mine Bitcoin.

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So you just flip a switch, and

it uses your computer's CPU

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to calculate hash functions.

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and mine Bitcoin.

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So that's what I did too.

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It really exhausted your CPU though.

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So I couldn't really work on my

computer while it was mining.

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I could just mine overnight and

then work on my PhD during the day.

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So that's what I did.

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All of this is 2011 ish, it's early

on, but there's already an exchange

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that's up and running, that was Mt.

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Gox at the time, an exchange out

of Japan, that was, a little bit

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later on spectacularly imploded.

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But so since there was an exchange,

there was already pricing information

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and I noticed, oh, the price is going up.

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Maybe it's worth it to convert

some of my own savings into Bitcoin.

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And I did that.

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And it wasn't much cause I was a

student and I, I didn't have significant

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funds to convert, but I felt like

even if I just put in 20, maybe it

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will be worth something down the road.

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And that was my entry to Bitcoin.

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And it's been a while.

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So I've had a chance to learn more about

What Bitcoin is, how it works, the math

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behind it, what are hash functions,

how do they make sure that Bitcoin is

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secure, that our transactions are going

to be processed, even though there's

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no one that is really responsible

for processing those transactions.

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It's just the free market that

decides which transactions get

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processed and which aren't.

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And I've learned more about I've markets.

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I've learned more about

how money works in the U.

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S.

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More about fiat and the

banking system and history.

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There's just a lot to learn when you

start being interested in, why is there

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inflation and things like that, that I

just hadn't had the interest to do before.

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Because my interest was mostly in

science and not the monetary system.

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But once you start learning about Bitcoin,

one of the side effects of that is

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learning about how the monetary system

works and that helps you make this

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financial decisions down the road too.

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So that was my journey into Bitcoin.

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Lately I've become more interested

in sharing my story and contributing

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to Bitcoin events such as meetups

or conferences, I help organize

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the Atlanta Bitcoin conference, for

example, where you and I got to meet.

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So that was a very special occasion.

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I homeschool my children and I teach

them about Bitcoin if they want to

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hear about it, if they don't, that's

up to them and I have become more

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interested in how Bitcoin mining affects

both the energy industry as well as

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the semiconductor industry, because

that is where I used to innovate in.

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And now I'm seeing that when I

first started my PhD, all we had

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was consumer electronics, computers.

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We tried to make computers

better, faster, more powerful.

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And that's what I was trying to

achieve with my graphene chips.

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But when you have a problem, like you're

trying to make better computers and

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that problem has the same constraints

and the same just when you're trying

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: 00:10:39

to solve the same problem for 10 years,

it's hard to truly innovate . What we

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have been doing is mostly optimize.

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: 00:10:47

So we've had Silicon chips 20 years ago,

and we've optimized those Silicon chips

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and our computers have gotten better.

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: 00:10:54

But it's only been optimization.

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It hasn't been real innovation.

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Nobody has put graphene chips

into their computers yet.

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Nobody is really deviating from the

path of just making silicon chips

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smaller and when it comes to Bitcoin

mining, you're really solving for

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a different set of problems than

when you're building computers.

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: 00:11:18

Because when you're mining, you're

doing one calculation over and over.

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It's much simpler than playing Netflix

or, video games or whatever, web browsing,

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things like that are much more complicated

and need much more powerful chips.

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So in Bitcoin mining, you

really don't need chips that

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are that versatile or powerful.

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: 00:11:37

All you need is chips that consume less

electricity because a miner just wants

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to have fewer costs, just spend less on

electricity and get more calculations

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out in a short period of time.

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So they need to be fast, but they

don't need to be powerful and They

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don't need to be small either,

because you can just build a huge

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facility in the middle of Texas and

have your calculations done there.

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It really doesn't need to fit in

your pocket like a phone does.

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You're really solving for a

different set of problems.

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So you can make chips very differently.

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You can innovate in whole different ways.

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And that makes me excited because that

opens doors to innovation that will

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benefit our computers eventually too.

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And I haven't had a chance to go back into

research and , I haven't worked in a lab

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: 00:12:30

since I graduated with my degree, but

I'm just excited for all the potential

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that's there and I do hope that more

people talk about it more people get

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interested in making chips for Bitcoin

mining and maybe If I get a chance, I

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can see that as a path to contributing in

that space besides just talking about it

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Tali: That's really fascinating.

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: 00:12:58

And what a unique perspective to look

at Bitcoin from your point of view

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when you're researching nanotechnology.

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: 00:13:05

I'm just curious, going back to all those

years ago when you were first exposed

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: 00:13:10

to Bitcoin, you mentioned that you were

immediately attracted by the fact that

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: 00:13:16

the basic fundamentals were valuable.

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: 00:13:20

And I'm just wondering, from your point

of view of a PhD student with limited

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: 00:13:25

funds, but really at the cutting edge of

technology development, what did you see

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was a parallel between the innovation of

Bitcoin and what you were trying to do?

199

: 00:13:36

Elly: So Bitcoin was an innovation

in software and I was an experimental

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: 00:13:42

scientist in hardware, so there

wasn't really a whole lot of overlap

201

: 00:13:46

that I saw from the very beginning.

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: 00:13:48

I saw that you needed hardware to do

the math in Bitcoin, but I haven't

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quite connected the dots of how

Bitcoin mining could drive innovation

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and semiconductors at the time.

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: 00:14:05

I was just trying to make

consumer electronics better.

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: 00:14:08

I saw Bitcoin as entirely

separate from or just another.

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: 00:14:13

interesting development in the

world, but not really something that

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applied to my research at the time.

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: 00:14:20

Now I can see the connection a

lot clearer but at the time I

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didn't really see the connection.

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What I did see at the time, or what I

believe drew me to Bitcoin, was that

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: 00:14:34

It wasn't just someone who decided

that Bitcoin should be valuable or that

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: 00:14:41

Bitcoin should have certain properties.

214

: 00:14:44

The properties of Bitcoin really

emerge from the code and the math

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: 00:14:49

itself and it's like gold in that

gold is just a physical element.

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: 00:14:56

Nobody decided that gold

should have certain properties.

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: 00:15:00

It had the properties first,

and then people decided that

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: 00:15:03

those are valuable and useful.

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: 00:15:06

And, code really doesn't

know that it's money either.

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: 00:15:09

All it knows that It's

an irreversible function.

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: 00:15:13

You know how 3 times 5 is 15, and

then 15 divided by 5 is 3, that's a

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: 00:15:20

reversible function, it goes both ways.

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: 00:15:23

Hash functions are not like that.

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: 00:15:25

Once you hash, which a hashing

algorithm is just a very systematic

225

: 00:15:30

scramble of data, any data.

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: 00:15:33

Once you scramble it and you

develop that fingerprint hash,

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it cannot be unscrambled.

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You cannot deduce from the hash

what the original file was,

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what the original data was.

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: 00:15:46

But You can prove what data was scrambled

because you can re scramble it and

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you will get the same hash number.

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And that's just a really clever way of

making things inscribed in digital stone.

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It's, it makes an unalterable, or, you

can still alter the files, but it becomes

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very clear when the file was altered.

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: 00:16:08

Everybody can double check and rehash

a file to see if it was altered.

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And it's just a really cool way

of making things last forever.

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It's hard to know for me when exactly

I understood that piece of the puzzle,

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but it's just cool that the properties

of Bitcoin come out of the math.

239

: 00:16:31

And then we decide that those properties

are valuable, and that's why it has value.

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: 00:16:35

It's not because someone told us

that the dollar bill has value and,

241

: 00:16:40

or we all agreed, it's not even

a group phenomenon that we as a

242

: 00:16:43

group decided that it has value.

243

: 00:16:45

It's the properties itself incentivize us

to think that it has value because those

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: 00:16:51

are the types of properties that we look

for when we look for something of value.

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: 00:16:56

not alterable.

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Tali: I think for people who are

not computer scientists, for example

247

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myself it's really hard for us to

wrap our head around what you're

248

: 00:17:05

saying about the SHA function.

249

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You mentioned that there's a

YouTube video that demonstrates

250

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this with pen and pencil.

251

: 00:17:11

Elly: that's right.

252

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Since hash functions or hash

algorithms are really just math,

253

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you can do math with pen and pencil.

254

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So there is a YouTube video that

you're gonna put in the show

255

: 00:17:21

notes that demonstrates, and you

don't even need to understand,

256

: 00:17:25

what the person is calculating.

257

: 00:17:27

I think it's just fascinating to see that

it can be done with pencil and paper.

258

: 00:17:31

You don't actually need computers

to do that calculation for you.

259

: 00:17:35

It's a calculation that's fairly

simple for computers to do.

260

: 00:17:38

It's not that simple for

humans, but it is doable.

261

: 00:17:40

You can do it with pencil and paper.

262

: 00:17:42

And yeah, SHA 256 just stands for Secure

Hashing Algorithm and the 256 for bits.

263

: 00:17:49

So all it does is any file that is on

your computer , that can be a video, that

264

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can be a photo, it can be an Excel file,

anything that's a file, it takes up more

265

: 00:18:01

or less space on your hard drive, right?

266

: 00:18:03

Like a video takes up

more space than a picture.

267

: 00:18:05

That's just because.

268

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The way that your computer stores it

is not as a picture as a video, it

269

: 00:18:11

stores it as a long string of zeros

and ones, and the video just has more

270

: 00:18:16

zeros and ones, it's a longer number.

271

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tHe zeros and ones can

then be converted back.

272

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So the picture is converted to 1s

can be converted back to the picture.

273

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But once you have the 0s and 1s, you

break them up into what the SHA 256

274

: 00:18:30

algorithm does, is it breaks it up

into chunks of 256 bits each, and

275

: 00:18:36

systematically scrambles them together.

276

: 00:18:38

to then get the result that's 256 bits.

277

: 00:18:41

So all the information is lost from

the picture, all you get is that

278

: 00:18:46

number, and that number is like a

fingerprint of the original file.

279

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So you cannot extract the original

file out of that hash in the end.

280

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But it is just a number, and

256 bits is not very large, so

281

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it can sit on your hard drive.

282

: 00:19:01

And As a fingerprint of that file,

which is why anybody who has a

283

: 00:19:06

terabyte hard drive can download

the entire history of all Bitcoin

284

: 00:19:12

transactions to said hard drive.

285

: 00:19:15

And, having a copy around just

signals to the rest of the

286

: 00:19:19

network that this is valuable.

287

: 00:19:21

So if 40, 000 people have a copy of

the ledger, the financial ledger of

288

: 00:19:28

Bitcoin, then if someone tries to cheat

and say, Oh, no, it was actually, I

289

: 00:19:33

actually own 10 Bitcoin when they don't.

290

: 00:19:37

There's a very easy way to double

check that, because if they have

291

: 00:19:40

those 10 bitcoins, then the file

would look different, it would have

292

: 00:19:44

a different hash, but 40, 000 people

have proof that the hash is what

293

: 00:19:50

it is yeah, , it's cool that way.

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Tali: Yeah, see most of what you

said went over my head, but I know

295

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that to a lot of people out there who

understand higher mathematics it makes

296

: 00:20:02

perfect sense because it did for Scott.

297

: 00:20:04

He was trying to explain the same

thing to me and not my, how my brain

298

: 00:20:08

thinks, but I appreciate people like

you and Scott who can get into the

299

: 00:20:12

technical nitty gritty and explain it.

300

: 00:20:14

So thank you for sharing that.

301

: 00:20:16

In terms of application, so we were

talking nitty gritty about the algorithm

302

: 00:20:21

of Bitcoin and why it's so valuable

in that the intrinsic Characteristics

303

: 00:20:27

of that algorithm is what we deem

valuable to be used as a money standard.

304

: 00:20:33

So if we jump back a little farther

and look at Bitcoin from more of a

305

: 00:20:38

functionality point of view how has

your life or even just perspective on

306

: 00:20:43

life or just viewpoints changed since

you have been in the Bitcoin space?

307

: 00:20:48

Elly: I think Bitcoin

has made me more hopeful.

308

: 00:20:52

And it's anytime I hear about

innovation that happens, people coming

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: 00:20:59

up with new ideas, coming up with

ideas that solve real problems, it

310

: 00:21:03

makes me more hopeful for humanity.

311

: 00:21:05

And Bitcoin just solves a lot of the

problems that our monetary system has.

312

: 00:21:10

Inflation is just one of them.

313

: 00:21:12

Just real life, just transferring money

to another country and how cumbersome

314

: 00:21:19

and difficult and expensive that can be.

315

: 00:21:22

And Bitcoin solves that problem by just

making it easy and the, the costs, there

316

: 00:21:29

is a cost associated with it because you

need to incentivize miners to include

317

: 00:21:34

your transactions in their blocks.

318

: 00:21:35

But other than that, it's not,

319

: 00:21:37

it's not an arbitrary

profit that someone has.

320

: 00:21:42

I think that would be it.

321

: 00:21:44

One is that Bitcoin

really makes me hopeful.

322

: 00:21:46

And the other is Bitcoin has spurred

my interest or has guided my interest

323

: 00:21:52

towards things like the monetary system

and how the banking system works,

324

: 00:21:58

why fiat creates so many problems.

325

: 00:22:01

Those are things that I just haven't

had a chance to think about before

326

: 00:22:06

I ever got interested in Bitcoin.

327

: 00:22:08

And I think that having

that knowledge now.

328

: 00:22:12

does help me understand the

world a little bit better.

329

: 00:22:15

Tali: So the first thing you mentioned

was it Bitcoin has made you more hopeful.

330

: 00:22:20

In order for you to be more hopeful,

you had to be in a darker place before.

331

: 00:22:24

So can you just expand a little bit

about your mindset before Bitcoin

332

: 00:22:29

and maybe compare your experience

growing up in Germany versus

333

: 00:22:33

what you're witnessing in the U.

334

: 00:22:34

S.

335

: 00:22:34

in the last 15 years.

336

: 00:22:36

Elly: I don't know how to answer that

question because, just growing up as

337

: 00:22:40

a child, you don't think a lot about

money other than just that it's limited

338

: 00:22:46

and you have to budget for things, but

money as a whole how do we deal with it?

339

: 00:22:52

How are we affected by

things like inflation?

340

: 00:22:55

That's just and budgeting too, is

just something that you get a whole

341

: 00:22:59

different perspective on just by

being an adult and having to manage

342

: 00:23:04

and plan for things differently.

343

: 00:23:06

So what makes me hopeful is more of a

global scale hopeful for people who find

344

: 00:23:14

themselves in hyperinflation situations,

people who find themselves in unfavorable

345

: 00:23:20

political situations who may need to

up and leave and with Bitcoin, they, all

346

: 00:23:26

they need to do is memorize their password

and they don't need to bring anything.

347

: 00:23:31

They can flee naked across the

border , and still have all

348

: 00:23:33

their funds available to them.

349

: 00:23:35

So that's really what I mean by it

makes me hopeful because it really

350

: 00:23:40

helps people in, real life situations.

351

: 00:23:42

Um, the The way that it's

helped me is just that.

352

: 00:23:46

It's a nest egg, it's great to have

just a little bit of backup and just

353

: 00:23:51

something that I don't have to worry

about but it's I haven't been in that

354

: 00:23:57

situation where I've had to flee the

country and start over somewhere entirely

355

: 00:24:03

new with it nothing, so I haven't even

used Bitcoin for remittances, but I

356

: 00:24:09

know that a lot of people, remittances

are just part of their lives and

357

: 00:24:13

that's how they keep their family

alive in a different part of the world.

358

: 00:24:17

And having to pay fees

every time you send money is.

359

: 00:24:20

Just taking away money from your family.

360

: 00:24:23

And that's really not necessary.

361

: 00:24:25

And I am glad that there is a

technology out there that allows you

362

: 00:24:29

to send the full amount of value.

363

: 00:24:31

I'm glad that it's just

available to people.

364

: 00:24:34

If the Western Union works for you,

great, but if you want the better

365

: 00:24:38

option, there is a better option

if your bank works well for you.

366

: 00:24:40

Great.

367

: 00:24:41

If you have investment strategies

that work for you that's also great.

368

: 00:24:46

You don't have to own

Bitcoin to have a nest egg.

369

: 00:24:50

You don't have to own Bitcoin to

send money abroad, but it does make

370

: 00:24:56

things easier in some ways or better.

371

: 00:24:59

It's just a better solution.

372

: 00:25:01

You don't need anyone's

permission to use the system.

373

: 00:25:04

I've had a bank account close

that I didn't want closed.

374

: 00:25:08

My bank just informed me that

they closed my bank account.

375

: 00:25:11

That's not something that

will happen to you in Bitcoin.

376

: 00:25:13

You know, Once you have Bitcoin on your

address, nobody can close your address.

377

: 00:25:17

You're just not at the mercy of

someone else's decision making.

378

: 00:25:21

You take self responsibility and

that's just something that as an

379

: 00:25:26

adult is important to do and just

to take responsibility for your

380

: 00:25:31

own life and your own finances.

381

: 00:25:33

And I like to compare it to using public

transport versus having your own car.

382

: 00:25:39

It's like public transport might be

it's great that this is a service

383

: 00:25:43

that's provided to you and if

that works for your life, great.

384

: 00:25:47

If there's a hurricane, you

really want to have your own car.

385

: 00:25:52

You don't want to wait for a bus

when there's a hurricane coming.

386

: 00:25:55

And if there's no hurricanes

in your life That's fantastic.

387

: 00:25:59

But hurricanes can and do happen.

388

: 00:26:02

Financial political instability

can and does happen.

389

: 00:26:06

I know we live in a country where we

feel like things are relatively stable,

390

: 00:26:11

even though we experienced things

like inflation and housing crisis.

391

: 00:26:15

And there are financial crises,

so it is nice to have at least.

392

: 00:26:21

a fraction of your savings in a

place that is unaffected by those

393

: 00:26:26

potential financial future crises,

but you don't have to, it's okay.

394

: 00:26:31

If you feel perfectly fine with

using a financial system that other

395

: 00:26:36

people control then that's fine.

396

: 00:26:38

But if you are, I don't know, a control

freak, or if you just want that, the

397

: 00:26:43

extra little bit of security of using a

financial system that is not controlled by

398

: 00:26:48

any jurisdiction then Bitcoin is for you.

399

: 00:26:52

Tali: I

400

: 00:26:52

Love the analogy of the public

transportation versus your own car.

401

: 00:26:56

it's a double edged sword when

you're talking about owning

402

: 00:26:58

something yourself, right?

403

: 00:27:00

So you have full control of your

car, but you need to maintain it.

404

: 00:27:03

And so in my mind, like we were

just talking about our car troubles

405

: 00:27:06

earlier before we started recording,

I recently lost the car because we

406

: 00:27:10

neglected to maintain it properly.

407

: 00:27:12

We ran out of oil and the engine died.

408

: 00:27:15

And what are our options?

409

: 00:27:16

The car is totaled.

410

: 00:27:17

So in the same way, if we have Bitcoin

in my mind, the oil is like, education,

411

: 00:27:24

keep yourself informed, listen to

podcasts like this, listen to other

412

: 00:27:27

Bitcoin podcasts, keep informed.

413

: 00:27:29

That's like putting oil

in your engine, right?

414

: 00:27:31

Because if you lose your Bitcoin,

there is no third party for you

415

: 00:27:34

to go to and say, Hey, I forgot my

password, can you please reset it?

416

: 00:27:38

No, when your engine dies,

like my car did, it's totaled.

417

: 00:27:42

If you don't take the necessary measures

to stay informed, to be educated,

418

: 00:27:46

and you lose your Bitcoin, it's gone.

419

: 00:27:48

So it's a double edged sword.

420

: 00:27:51

And like you said, whichever one you

choose, it's completely up to you.

421

: 00:27:54

But know that there is another option

outside of the current fiat system.

422

: 00:28:00

Elly: For a lot of us who don't just keep

savings in dollars and hardly anybody

423

: 00:28:05

does anymore because there's retirement

accounts and there's real estate and

424

: 00:28:09

for those you need to be educated on

those too and that takes work . too.

425

: 00:28:15

There are financial services for any other

investment or financial security vehicle.

426

: 00:28:22

There are resources for Bitcoin where

you can just work with a financial

427

: 00:28:27

advisor that understands Bitcoin

and then they can handle it for you.

428

: 00:28:31

, there are companies that will set up

a multi sig wallet for you , and help.

429

: 00:28:37

draft all the documents that

you need to inherit your

430

: 00:28:41

Bitcoin to the next generation.

431

: 00:28:43

There's people who will walk you

through the process of securing your

432

: 00:28:48

Bitcoin where you really don't need

to know or be worried about messing

433

: 00:28:53

it up because they handle it for you.

434

: 00:28:56

There is help out there.

435

: 00:28:57

You don't have to do everything yourself.

436

: 00:28:59

If you don't even have the time or

interest or ability or financial or

437

: 00:29:06

technical expertise to see through the

jungle , that is Bitcoin, you don't

438

: 00:29:13

have to if all you understand is that.

439

: 00:29:16

Here is a monetary system.

440

: 00:29:17

Here is a place to have a piece of your

savings be independent of human decision

441

: 00:29:26

making, you of banks, governments.

442

: 00:29:30

Brokers, anybody, , if you want that

to just be secured by code, then find

443

: 00:29:36

someone who can set up a wallet for you.

444

: 00:29:39

Just put in as much as you feel you

want to protect and be done with it.

445

: 00:29:44

You don't really have to keep

maintaining that knowledge.

446

: 00:29:48

As long as you have the password

associated with your wallet, You're

447

: 00:29:51

good, and if you do find yourself In a

situation where you need to access those

448

: 00:29:56

funds then there's services for that too.

449

: 00:29:58

And you can just contact them.

450

: 00:30:00

They'll help you recover and access them.

451

: 00:30:04

So they're there are financial

services out there for Bitcoiners

452

: 00:30:08

is what I'm trying to say.

453

: 00:30:09

And you don't have to, unless you're

very interested in it, you can be your,

454

: 00:30:14

you could take the responsibility and

be your own financial service provider.

455

: 00:30:17

But there are financial service

providers in the Bitcoin space too.

456

: 00:30:20

And ,they're open to, to help

anyone who needs that help and

457

: 00:30:25

the community is great, too.

458

: 00:30:26

So it's not just financial services.

459

: 00:30:28

It's there's also bitcoin has network and

just a lot of people who are who've gone

460

: 00:30:36

through the self education and all of

that and who are happy to answer questions

461

: 00:30:41

I'm always happy to answer questions if

people want to understand the technical

462

: 00:30:46

background better or just practically

how, like, where do I even buy Bitcoin?

463

: 00:30:51

What do I do with it after I buy it?

464

: 00:30:53

There are a lot of people who are

happy to help without you even

465

: 00:30:57

needing to pay them for their help.

466

: 00:30:59

So,

467

: 00:31:01

Tali: Entering the Bitcoin space

is even just over the last year.

468

: 00:31:05

There is so much innovation happening

in this space to make Bitcoin more user

469

: 00:31:10

friendly, to make it more accessible.

470

: 00:31:12

And I just can't even begin to imagine

how difficult it was 11 years ago

471

: 00:31:17

when it was less visible, and I feel

like you almost have to be in a very

472

: 00:31:22

niche group of people in order to

have exposure to it to correctly

473

: 00:31:27

possess it, acquire it and hold it.

474

: 00:31:29

But right now There are Bitcoin

meetups popping up everywhere.

475

: 00:31:33

It's much more visible.

476

: 00:31:34

People are so open to

sharing their knowledge.

477

: 00:31:38

And there's tons and tons of

educational materials out there.

478

: 00:31:41

So you can either delegate it by

using one of the financial services

479

: 00:31:46

you mentioned or you can completely

self custody and there's a lot

480

: 00:31:51

of help for doing that as well.

481

: 00:31:52

Elly: Back in the day when I first

heard about Bitcoin, self custody

482

: 00:31:55

was the only way to have Bitcoin.

483

: 00:31:58

And I have to say that I don't think

it's just me, but , downloading

484

: 00:32:02

a wallet and typing a wallet

address somewhere wasn't that hard.

485

: 00:32:08

we're used to, downloading programs

and files from the computer.

486

: 00:32:13

It's, It's easier than online banking.

487

: 00:32:15

The wallet tells you what you need to do.

488

: 00:32:19

, you download it, you open it, it

tells you, write down these 12 words.

489

: 00:32:22

You write them down on a piece of paper.

490

: 00:32:24

Congratulations.

491

: 00:32:26

You, have now completely

cryptographically secured your funds.

492

: 00:32:30

It gives you an address to send it to.

493

: 00:32:33

And it tells you, put in that address,

if you ever need money to send to it.

494

: 00:32:37

And if you're ever at an impasse

where you're like I don't know

495

: 00:32:41

what to do with my address.

496

: 00:32:42

I don't know how to get the

Bitcoin back out of my address.

497

: 00:32:46

Then there, there's a community

that will help you answer those

498

: 00:32:48

questions, or a service that will

help you answer that question.

499

: 00:32:52

Understanding how it works technically

is one thing, but using it is really

500

: 00:32:59

quite simple, and I know swiping a

credit card is simple too, but, And

501

: 00:33:04

for Bitcoin, it's scanning a QR code.

502

: 00:33:06

It's not that hard.

503

: 00:33:07

people have built technologies

that make it quite easy.

504

: 00:33:10

Tali: Yeah, for sure.

505

: 00:33:11

I think in the beginning Scott

and I, it was a trust factor

506

: 00:33:15

because we did not understand it.

507

: 00:33:17

We didn't want to trust it

and we were just getting used

508

: 00:33:20

to online banking back then.

509

: 00:33:22

We used to, bring a check, a physical

check into a physical building and hand

510

: 00:33:28

it to a live person to deposit our check,

but then suddenly we could just take a

511

: 00:33:33

picture of it with our phone and it took

me a long time just to trust that part.

512

: 00:33:38

So now that

513

: 00:33:38

Elly: I understand, but it's really

interesting in that bringing a

514

: 00:33:43

physical check to a location is

less secure than taking a picture.

515

: 00:33:49

So it's interesting that we trusted a

system that wasn't very secure, where

516

: 00:33:55

your identity can be stolen, where,

checks can be stolen, that happened

517

: 00:34:00

to me, my checkbook was stolen, and

here's the technology that, yeah,

518

: 00:34:04

it takes a while to understand it.

519

: 00:34:07

But it's really more secure

than any of the other systems

520

: 00:34:11

that we have available to us.

521

: 00:34:13

Tali: so you've been in this

space for quite a while are all

522

: 00:34:17

your family members on board?

523

: 00:34:18

Have your orange pill?

524

: 00:34:19

All of them?

525

: 00:34:20

Elly: No, not at all.

526

: 00:34:22

They know that this is something that's

available to them and they don't trust it.

527

: 00:34:26

They just don't think it has value.

528

: 00:34:29

They don't think that they need it.

529

: 00:34:32

They are happy with , their banks

and their investments and retirement

530

: 00:34:37

accounts and everything else that

they've, that they're happy with the

531

: 00:34:40

way that they manage their money.

532

: 00:34:42

So they don't feel the need to

incorporate Bitcoin into their

533

: 00:34:47

strategy or use it for anything

because credit cards are easy enough.

534

: 00:34:52

They don't need to have yet

another way to transact.

535

: 00:34:57

And that's really the case.

536

: 00:35:00

If public transportation works just

fine you don't really need to go

537

: 00:35:04

research what car is best for your

family, how to maintain it how to

538

: 00:35:09

drive a car, learn how to drive a car.

539

: 00:35:11

Once you drive a car, it's second

nature, it's but if the public

540

: 00:35:15

transportation system works for you,

there is just, yeah it's like that.

541

: 00:35:20

And it's like the rest of our family is

using buses and we're driving a car and

542

: 00:35:24

they're, we also use the bus, right?

543

: 00:35:26

We still have bank accounts and

credit cards and all that so all

544

: 00:35:32

they see is that we also have a

car, but they don't need a car.

545

: 00:35:36

So they don't care.

546

: 00:35:37

And, we tell them that we're available to,

to answer their questions if they need to,

547

: 00:35:42

or if they complain about inflation, then

we say I know there's inflation on the

548

: 00:35:45

bus, but there's no inflation in the car.

549

: 00:35:47

It's really up to you it's your

choice , to not have a car.

550

: 00:35:52

We can help teach, how to drive a car.

551

: 00:35:54

We can help you with

how to, purchase a car.

552

: 00:35:58

, we can help with onboarding,

we can help with maintenance,

553

: 00:36:00

we can help with everything.

554

: 00:36:02

But if that's not something that you're

interested in because your current system,

555

: 00:36:07

you're happy with how you are doing things

currently, then that's your choice.

556

: 00:36:10

You're an adult.

557

: 00:36:11

You make your own choices.

558

: 00:36:13

Tali: Yeah, everybody should

have the freedom to choose.

559

: 00:36:15

And that's part of why Bitcoin is so

valuable because you get to choose to

560

: 00:36:19

participate versus our current system.

561

: 00:36:21

You're told that you must participate.

562

: 00:36:24

, Elly: we choose to participate in Bitcoin,

but we also choose to participate in

563

: 00:36:28

the fiat system because of certain

conveniences that it affords us, right?

564

: 00:36:32

So while we're actively making that

choice, for most people, that's

565

: 00:36:36

not an active choice to make.

566

: 00:36:38

And if buses become unavailable,

if the, fiat system doesn't work

567

: 00:36:42

anymore for a lot of people, that

would mean a huge inconvenience,

568

: 00:36:47

if not, just really life altering.

569

: 00:36:50

Whereas for us, it would be no big

deal, because we have that other option

570

: 00:36:54

to transact in a different currency.

571

: 00:36:56

And that's, it's good to have.

572

: 00:36:59

Tali: Yeah, definitely.

573

: 00:37:00

So you have two kids and you mentioned

before that if they want to learn

574

: 00:37:05

about Bitcoin, you'll teach them

and if they don't, that's okay, too.

575

: 00:37:08

But you guys actually worked together

and developed a very interesting

576

: 00:37:12

game to explain it to them.

577

: 00:37:14

The Bitcoin block, the blockchain would

you like to talk a little bit about that?

578

: 00:37:18

Elly: Yeah, I'm happy to.

579

: 00:37:20

Since my kids are homeschooled, they

find different ways to explore academic

580

: 00:37:27

topics or anything that they're

interested in, and so my son happens

581

: 00:37:31

to be just very interested in math

and all the different ways that you

582

: 00:37:36

can express math and show math and

how you can make art with math how you

583

: 00:37:40

can visualize or illustrate things.

584

: 00:37:42

He really plays with math I would say.

585

: 00:37:45

He was just playing around with

all the different ways to solve

586

: 00:37:50

for the trinomial expansion.

587

: 00:37:52

And he came up with a way to.

588

: 00:37:56

make a cube, because it's a

cubic equation, so you should

589

: 00:37:59

be able to show it as a cube.

590

: 00:38:00

So he made a cube and then he

split it up into smaller pieces

591

: 00:38:06

that are then the different

terms in the trinomial expansion.

592

: 00:38:09

And we 3D printed the pieces

with the correct dimensions

593

: 00:38:14

and we played around with it.

594

: 00:38:16

And everybody we showed this to

thought it was a really fun way to

595

: 00:38:22

assemble a cube out of smaller pieces.

596

: 00:38:25

And even if they don't understand

the math behind it, or it's just

597

: 00:38:30

blocks that assemble into a cube.

598

: 00:38:33

So since we noticed how much fun it

is to play around with it, we thought

599

: 00:38:38

it might be fun to have the pieces

made out of plexiglass so that they're

600

: 00:38:42

colorful and beautiful and see through.

601

: 00:38:45

And we still , 3D print the holder,

the cube holder out of PLA, but that

602

: 00:38:53

3D puzzle is now available for sale.

603

: 00:38:55

we actually sell those cubes now so

that other families can also enjoy

604

: 00:39:00

assembling a cube out of pieces

and it's a really fun 3D puzzle.

605

: 00:39:06

But we've also noticed that The cube

can be a really valuable teaching tool

606

: 00:39:12

to understand what a Bitcoin block

is . like, That it has a finite size,

607

: 00:39:17

that it's filled with transactions

that are gathered from mempool which

608

: 00:39:23

is just a general pool of transactions.

609

: 00:39:26

So if you have a Bitcoin transaction,

you just communicate it to the network.

610

: 00:39:30

And then from all of the available

transactions, a miner would then

611

: 00:39:34

assemble one block that has a limited

size and they have an incentive to

612

: 00:39:40

only include transactions that, that

carry the highest fees with them.

613

: 00:39:43

So our little Cube 3D puzzle became

teaching tool to show or illustrate

614

: 00:39:51

how miners go about assembling a Bitcoin

block out of transactions and it's really

615

: 00:39:58

analogous to, the block template being the

holder and the little acrylic pieces being

616

: 00:40:06

the transactions, it all fits together

to make one block of a finite size.

617

: 00:40:11

It's helped, we've taken the puzzle to the

Atlanta Bitcoin Conference and I've used

618

: 00:40:19

it to illustrate how Bitcoin mining works

in talks that I've given at conferences

619

: 00:40:25

and podcasts that I've participated in.

620

: 00:40:27

And generally the feedback that

I've gotten is that people understand

621

: 00:40:32

Bitcoin a little bit better now that

they have seen a visual representation

622

: 00:40:38

of what the files look like when

Bitcoin miners assemble them.

623

: 00:40:43

And if you are not the technical type,

but you like beautiful, mathematical

624

: 00:40:48

art pieces, or just a visual way , to

illustrate a complex phenomenon.

625

: 00:40:54

It's just really cool.

626

: 00:40:55

,since my son designed it

originally he's, and he helps.

627

: 00:41:00

And it's been great.

628

: 00:41:01

The kids both help with putting the

kits together in, into a box, we

629

: 00:41:06

box each puzzle still ourselves.

630

: 00:41:08

We 3D print the pieces ourselves.

631

: 00:41:10

Each is really unique that way that

the acrylic pieces are the same across

632

: 00:41:16

all the puzzles and we've had them

made professionally but a lot of the

633

: 00:41:19

assembly is still homemade and it's

great to involve the kids in the little

634

: 00:41:24

business, even though, you know, it's

not paying the bills, but It's a great

635

: 00:41:28

teaching tool for how to run a business.

636

: 00:41:30

How does the world work like that?

637

: 00:41:32

We need to pay taxes for each cube

that we sell that we need to pay our

638

: 00:41:36

suppliers that make our acrylic blocks.

639

: 00:41:39

That there's a cost associated with

it, that there's shipping costs

640

: 00:41:42

associated with it, that there's work

associated with assembling the kits.

641

: 00:41:46

And that we do want to price it in the

way that we make a profit in the end,

642

: 00:41:51

even if we pay the kids some fraction as

a commission for their design and their

643

: 00:41:58

contribution to making the final product.

644

: 00:42:01

So in a way, it's become a homeschool

project that's, that I feel that is very

645

: 00:42:08

valuable in preparing you for being an

adult and how do businesses work, but

646

: 00:42:13

at the same time, other families get to

enjoy the puzzle playing around with it,

647

: 00:42:19

learning about Bitcoin and the process.

648

: 00:42:22

There's still more to do, we don't really

have a storefront, you still have to

649

: 00:42:25

just contact me and tell me that you

want a cube and I'll mail one to you,

650

: 00:42:29

but that's a work in progress and one

day I'm sure we'll have an online store

651

: 00:42:34

and you can order a cube from there

and it's gonna be more streamlined.

652

: 00:42:39

Tali: Right now if they're interested

in checking it out, they just go

653

: 00:42:42

to your Instagram page and all the

information will be in the show notes.

654

: 00:42:46

Any last recommendations for women who are

still sitting on the fence about Bitcoin?

655

: 00:42:51

Elly: My last recommendation?

656

: 00:42:52

I think it's okay to sit on the fence.

657

: 00:42:55

You don't have to make

decisions right away.

658

: 00:42:58

If you feel like you need to learn

more before you can make a decision,

659

: 00:43:01

if you feel like you need to talk to

a friend or someone go to a meetup,

660

: 00:43:05

see if you can talk to someone

and you can answer your questions.

661

: 00:43:09

There's a lot of YouTube videos

that, that are very helpful.

662

: 00:43:12

If you have specific questions,

there's telegram groups and there's

663

: 00:43:17

even groups that are just for women.

664

: 00:43:19

If you don't want things to be

mansplained to you , then there's that.

665

: 00:43:25

But if you feel like you don't

really have questions and you don't

666

: 00:43:28

really want to get involved in

Bitcoin, that's perfectly fine too.

667

: 00:43:35

And this that's your

choice and that's great.

668

: 00:43:38

But I do want to encourage people who

have at least a little bit of a curiosity,

669

: 00:43:43

which I don't know why anyone would

listen to your podcast if they weren't at

670

: 00:43:47

least a little bit curious about Bitcoin.

671

: 00:43:49

Maybe they just like you

and they're your friend.

672

: 00:43:51

That's cool too.

673

: 00:43:53

But if you're at least a little bit

curious about Bitcoin just find a way to

674

: 00:43:58

maybe just buy a little bit of Bitcoin.

675

: 00:44:01

And download the Bitcoin wallet

and download the little bit of

676

: 00:44:05

Bitcoin that you bought onto

your wallet and do nothing else.

677

: 00:44:09

Just literally nothing else.

678

: 00:44:11

Just check back a year later and see

if your Bitcoin is worth more now.

679

: 00:44:15

Or learn more about it and if you feel

like it is the future, then feel free

680

: 00:44:20

to put in more money if that's or take

it back out if you feel like it didn't

681

: 00:44:25

do anything for you and you don't

really want to keep one more option

682

: 00:44:30

around for your money, That's fine too.

683

: 00:44:32

We're all juggling a lot of

things in our minds all the time.

684

: 00:44:35

Decluttering that way is

fine as far as I'm concerned.

685

: 00:44:39

So it's like closing a credit card account

that you're not really using anyways.

686

: 00:44:43

And you're just paying, I don't know.

687

: 00:44:45

So yeah, that's my opinion anyways.

688

: 00:44:48

Tali: It's true.

689

: 00:44:49

It's their own choice and everybody

has a different journey to walk and

690

: 00:44:53

everybody has their own timing for coming

to Bitcoin or not coming to Bitcoin.

691

: 00:44:58

Thank you so much for sitting with us

today and sharing all of your stories.

692

: 00:45:03

I'm sure that people who

need to hear it will hear it.

693

: 00:45:06

I really believe people are brought

to stories that they need to listen to.

694

: 00:45:10

Thank you so much for

sharing with us today.

695

: 00:45:13

Elly: Oh, it was so much fun.

696

: 00:45:14

Thank you, Tali.

697

: 00:45:16

Tali: Thanks for joining us today . If

the discussion with our guests

698

: 00:45:20

resonated with you and you would

like to dive deeper into the world of

699

: 00:45:23

Bitcoin, don't miss out on joining the

Orange Hatter Women's Reading Club.

700

: 00:45:28

Also, if there are women in your life

whom you think would both enjoy and

701

: 00:45:32

benefit from learning more about Bitcoin,

please share Orange Hatter with them.

702

: 00:45:36

Until next time, bye!