Noelyn - "Times change, people evolve, things evolve, and it's the time now for new money!"

Speaker: 00:00:03

. Noelyn: In Kenya , we live a day

at a time hand to mouth, basically.

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The husband is the, breadwinner, once he

leaves most women are left without means.

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: 00:00:12

So it is in the back of the

minds of a lot of women.

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: 00:00:16

We have lots of cases of abuse in Kenya.

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: 00:00:18

I We saw a huge rise in divorce.

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: 00:00:21

Finances was a major issue

especially if the woman is

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dependent on the man, 100 percent.

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: 00:00:26

it's a huge deal.

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: 00:00:27

Let's educate the women because

after all, women are the majority

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population and around here,

women are quite the educators.

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: 00:00:36

If you educate a woman, they

educate their husband, they

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educate the community around them.

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That way, we can have women being

able to take care of their families,

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taking care of themselves, whether

you are married or unmarried.

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: 00:00:50

Tali: Hey, everybody.

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: 00:00:50

Welcome to Orange Hatter.

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: 00:00:52

My mission for the Orange Hatter podcast

is that after tuning in and hearing

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: 00:00:56

about everyday women's stories and

their path to Bitcoin, you'd think,

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: 00:01:00

Hey, if Bitcoin made a difference for

them, maybe it could do the same for me.

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: 00:01:04

I'm so glad you're here.

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: 00:01:06

And I know you're going

to love today's episode.

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: 00:01:08

Welcome.

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: 00:01:10

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: 00:01:11

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We can't wait to welcome you.

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: 00:02:35

Tali: Welcome Noelyn to Orange Hatter.

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: 00:02:37

I'm so happy to have you here.

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And I can't wait to dive

into your Bitcoin story.

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Noelyn: Thank you for having me Tali.

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I'm also glad to be here with you today.

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Tali: Awesome.

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Let's dive into a little

bit of your background.

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Noelyn: Yes.

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So my background in terms of

education , so I have a background

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in finance and accounting.

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What I studied in school means

actually is the financial engineering.

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What drove me actually funny thing

to learning this was I experienced

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something when I was young during the

: 2008

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but I happened to be affected by the

crisis, the financial crisis, and I became

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curious about money from a very young

age of uh, I saw the effects that the

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crisis had on my family and yeah, I just

wanted to go ahead and learn as much of

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about money that as I could, and that's

what drew me to learning about that.

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Yeah.

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Tali: Would you mind if I asked

you to share some details that

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you remember from that time?

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It sounds like it made

a huge impact on you.

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Noelyn: Yes it did.

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my dad, My dad used to work

in the banking sector and when

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the crisis happened in the US.

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The ripple effect here was

that, of course, you know how

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banks are usually asked to go

ahead and collect their assets.

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And unfortunately we lost

a lot as a result of that.

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And he ended up also

losing a lot financially.

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So maybe I can say I learned

recently that it was more of from

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a financial trauma point of view.

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Good or bad, I'm not sure, but I

think it, it had a huge impact to

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determining my focus or my trajectory

and especially getting here.

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So it's something that I'd always

wanted to know and learn how money

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works because I was curious about it.

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Tali: You didn't just want

to learn about economics.

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You actually went into the nitty gritty,

the financial engineering side of it.

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Noelyn: Oh, yes, I was looking for ways

to avoid risk from a very young age.

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And it's funny because now after

I had cleared, because I was

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studying business in high school.

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And when I got into campus, the

same thing, I just wanted to do

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something to do with related to money.

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So financial engineering

was the best option.

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And after I left now, this is where

it gets even more interesting.

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Okay.

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My internship was in a banking

in the banking industry.

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And I ensured I understood

everything that occurs in the bank.

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This is actually the first

time I'm mentioning this.

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Interesting.

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But yeah I Went ahead and learned

everything that I could in the

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banking sector and I did not like

the bank because I thought it was

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very monotonous working there.

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So even after my internship, I left and,

now with working in terms of getting

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job opportunities, it's not very easy in

Kenya, so it took me a while to be able

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to get into the sector, basically working.

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But when I was doing that, with the

few amount of money that I had made,

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or rather had saved, I wanted to look

for ways in which I could invest it.

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And the first time I remember I tried

investing, there was a product that had

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been released by the money markets in

Kenya, it's a T bill, but instead

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of having the huge amounts of money,

it was in just small quantities.

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I remember I saved it there first and

after I had saved it, what I received

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at the end of the year, it's something

like, if I could have worked hard, I

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would have received even within days.

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And I was shocked because I'd expected

with the interest rate that I would

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receive a huge amount of money.

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So I took my money out and I went into

shares and also a disappointment because

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especially if you're young and you try

to get into investment, you realize

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soon enough that either you need a huge

amount of money to get into it and in

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Africa, Australia, like investing in

companies chances of them failing are

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quite high and we've had lots of companies

fail here with Australian share prices.

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They plummet.

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There's Very few companies make it.

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That was my unfortunate

or rather fortunate event.

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So basically all throughout

I was just trying to find out

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something that I could invest in.

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You end up realizing sooner or later that

you might work for the rest of your life.

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And yeah, I guess that was

me in terms of my background.

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Especially when learning about

money, I had to do it practically.

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, Tali: when I was going through

school, people always talk about,

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There are two ways to earn money.

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There's one way, which is

using your labor, and one way

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is to use money to earn money.

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And we learn very quickly in

society that the money part is

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what makes the difference, not

necessarily your labor, I think.

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Noelyn: yeah!

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Tali: So that's why I'm very fascinated

that you went into financial engineering,

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because When I was in business school,

the people who went into financial

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engineering were the brainiacs.

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They were their super, super smart people

who would create derivatives on top

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of derivatives on top of derivatives.

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And I will always have to sit and

think so long about how this money

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is coming, like being creative

because it's so mind boggling.

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Noelyn: Yeah.

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And it's so funny.

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You end up realizing that derivatives

are just people trying to figure

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out ways to manipulate the

system in order to make profits.

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And I think that's the unfortunate

thing that not many people get

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to understand this language.

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So unless you study it.

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It's like it opens up your eyes.

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I think that's why it's easier

for people in finance to just

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switch on to Bitcoin quite easy.

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It opens up your eyes to

what exactly am I doing here?

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What's the end goal?

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And for financial engineering,

I did the derivatives.

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I did the derivatives.

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It never made sense to me.

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And I think even like the most

important topic I should have focused

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on and being taught was the crisis

because we had talked about Crisis.

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From the black Monday

crisis to the dot com crash.

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But and eventually you realize

that at the central point of all of

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this were people making decisions.

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And people using these same derivatives

that are learning about to come up with

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yeah, just ways in which money should

move or money should be allocated.

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And eventually there's the end

result, which unfortunately

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leads to the loss of income.

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Livelihoods are affected

by this worldwide.

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Tali: Yeah, you see very quickly.

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That , you have people who are on the

in, and people who are not on the in.

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Noelyn: yeah.

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Exactly.

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Tali: Do you mind if I

ask you how old you are?

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Noelyn: Oh, no, I'm in my late 20s.

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.

Tali: What you're doing being so active in this space is so encouraging

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because this is a young people's world.

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Not that it doesn't affect absolutely

everybody, but you guys are going

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to be the ones that make the

difference for this evolution.

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So I'm very excited to talk to

you about where you are now.

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So somehow you found Bitcoin

and let's talk about the

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first time you heard about it.

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Noelyn: Okay.

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Besides the financial trauma side of

it now that we're even talking about

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being women I, there's that desire

where you want to be a mom, you want

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to have a family and work life balance.

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Australia nine to five here.

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It's not that easy.

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And I was looking for a way out.

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I wanted if I want to start building

a family and I wanted a way in which

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I could be able to earn leisurely.

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I could be able to make time while

I do that, while I raise kids.

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And I looked at my options.

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So that is the other thing,

looking for financial freedom.

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So after now the internship, I

hustled a bit here and there.

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I ended up working for the

government in taxation.

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People are usually surprised.

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I know.

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Yeah, so I, while I was working there,

it just opened me up to a whole lot of

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things that were basically just, odd if

I may put it that way in terms of how

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the government runs the financial system

in terms of how taxation is applied.

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And I don't know whether it was

just me who was realizing it.

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Actually, if you're in it and

you're profiting from such a

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system, you do not really see the.

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challenges with it because after

all they're paying my salary.

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Why would I question why we are imposing

this tax and especially imposition of

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tax and people don't even have education.

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So tax education around

here is not quite good.

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And you have people lining up paying

taxes, and they don't even understand.

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Penalties are quite high.

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And I was supposed to be the

educator, but then you realize that

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even the regulatory authority isn't

focused on educating people on

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how they're supposed to be taxed.

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All they want is, you get the

penalty and you get taxed.

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So this was One of the reasons

when I thought I when people work

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in such organizations, government

organizations, they never want to leave.

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They want to stay there till retirement.

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I did not see myself doing that.

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I wanted to figure out I like working

in the sector, but I wanted to work in a

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sector that's impacting people positively.

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Tax collectors are not the

favorite at all in this country.

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And I wanted to find something

that can be impactful for people.

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So besides working towards having to

raise a family and looking for work

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that can be impactful, I decided I

was going to start educating myself.

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That's But I had come across Bitcoin

the very first time in: 2015

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was still a student back then.

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This was just a friend who was

mining Bitcoin back then in campus.

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And I just happened to come across

them and they told me about it.

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They mentioned it, but I didn't

pay keen attention to it.

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And they were like, you know

what, this is the future.

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Funny thing, even that friend

left Bitcoin, but came back later.

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So I read about it and I was

like, wow, this Bitcoin, but in

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campus, you don't really have

that much money to buy Bitcoin.

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I wish I would have even sacrificed

a bit of lunch and bought them.

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But anyways, it's a bygone.

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I had the tap to be, you remember

Zappos, that wasn't a bank

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then, it was still in Kenya.

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There are still people mining

Bitcoin in Kenya at that time.

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But not so many people, very

few people understood it.

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I used to tap to play and earn a few sats.

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I remember I called Zappo back recently

when I figured out what it was all about.

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I'm like, I still want my sats back.

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And they were like, no, it's gone.

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But yeah, after learning, clearing my

school, now going through this working

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journey while I was still in taxation,

I decided to self teach myself because

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I realized I had missed something.

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When there was a tourist who had

come to Kenya after they leave

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at the coast and around here we

have lots of tourists coming in.

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I interacted with with a couple of

them and I just used to hear them talk

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about crypto and traveling on crypto.

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So I met one who was specifically

traveling on I was like,

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how do you mean you are not?

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You can't be able to just

sit still and work somewhere.

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You can't be able to travel like this.

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So I felt I missed something and they

were kind enough to teach me and of

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course, to the teaching, they started

teaching me the trading part of it

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because they were doing all of crypto

but I had the background of Bitcoin

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: 00:14:33

and I had the background of, trying to

always avoid risk from my childhood.

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I knew the risk that comes with bank.

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I knew the risk that comes with people

being at the center of making financial

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decisions So it didn't take me a long

time when people say they went through

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: 00:14:47

the crypto Phase it didn't take me

long to realize there's something I

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missed here because with crypto there's

body making the decision at the top,

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but with Bitcoin, it's decentralized.

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: 00:14:58

So it was very easy for me

to just move towards Bitcoin.

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And with self teaching, once you get the

Bitcoin bug, it itches you, you want to

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start telling the whole world about it.

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: 00:15:09

So that's how I found myself.

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I just looked for the first social

media platform that I knew I could be

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: 00:15:15

able to talk to people about it easily.

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: 00:15:18

And I just started talking about, I

bought my first Bitcoin, it wasn't

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much, that time I was still working.

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And then I just started teaching about

Bitcoin, I was like, you know what,

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even if I don't get my social financial

freedom, maybe I could be able to reach

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other people so that they can see there

is a problem with having centralized

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decision making when it comes to money.

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And yeah, that's how I just

started shouting about Bitcoin

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everywhere to everyone.

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: 00:15:43

Yeah.

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Tali: So my first question is about

your dad who went through that

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trauma of the financial crisis.

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: 00:15:52

When you first came across Bitcoin

and you're starting to talk

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about it, what was his reaction?

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Noelyn: Oh, wow.

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It took him a while.

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It took him a while.

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Actually, when I said, I was leaving

my government job, which no one leaves.

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And so it took him a while to

actually agree or understand.

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But eventually.

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It came, he understood it,

also being with a background

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in banking, he now don't believe

that, yeah this thing is real.

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Of course, with the age factor, it's

still difficult for him to navigate

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it, but nowadays we, I send a few sats.

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He can be able to understand

what it really means.

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But yeah, I might say it

really did take a while.

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Surely him imagining that we can have

money that is not controlled by anyone.

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And in my country, Kenya, there's

a lot of money laundering.

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We call it it's called wash.

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So when people see you dealing in money

that is not Planted the government.

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They think you're more like a scammer

and he was worried about that.

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Yeah.

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Yeah, but I don't

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Tali: Yeah, I bet.

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It just sounds like he would be so ready

to hear about a better alternative,

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Noelyn: like they're so

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Tali: than what, what burned his boat,

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Noelyn: i'm used to this system, I don't

want to Be told that it's been a lie.

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Even at my young age, I was

very sad to figure that out.

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So I can imagine you'd

rather just filter it out.

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And that's the unfortunate part.

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We have been with the company

I'm working with onboarding.

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People who are older, it's it's a

struggle trying to explain it to them.

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It's what they've known their whole lives.

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So how can I, a young person, come and

tell them, you know what, times change,

312

: 00:17:44

people evolve, things evolve, and this

is, it's the time now for new money.

313

: 00:17:51

Tali: I think you hit the nail on the

head when you said It's hard for them

314

: 00:17:54

to believe that it's all been a lie

because being a much older person than

315

: 00:17:59

you I made major life decisions based

on what I was told and what I learned

316

: 00:18:05

and I Every step of the way I was trying

to make the right decisions so I can

317

: 00:18:10

imagine People who are even one or two

generations ahead of me turning around

318

: 00:18:15

looking back and go I can't believe I

was part of the whole scheme You know you

319

: 00:18:22

Noelyn: How did you be

able to turn around?

320

: 00:18:24

Maybe you can give me a few tips.

321

: 00:18:26

What changed your mind?

322

: 00:18:29

Tali: For me, personally,

I was very resistant.

323

: 00:18:32

My husband started hearing about it

on the podcast that he was listening

324

: 00:18:36

to and he was like, hey, Tali.

325

: 00:18:38

This Bitcoin thing.

326

: 00:18:39

I think it's something we should look

into and I said, I don't understand it

327

: 00:18:44

I'm not a computer person and I honestly

don't have time because it was a few

328

: 00:18:49

years ago My kids were all in school.

329

: 00:18:51

I homeschooled them.

330

: 00:18:52

So their school was my school

and I was I had no break.

331

: 00:18:57

It was like a 24 7 job and

Honestly, I just wanted him

332

: 00:19:01

to stop bugging me about it.

333

: 00:19:02

I was just like, can you please

stop talking about this thing?

334

: 00:19:04

I do not understand what it is.

335

: 00:19:06

How can it possibly be money?

336

: 00:19:07

And honestly, I think if I have been

something physical like gold I could wrap

337

: 00:19:11

my head around that, if people want to

exchange something that's physical, but

338

: 00:19:15

especially because it's digital and I

don't even know how to set up a wallet.

339

: 00:19:19

I don't know where the money goes.

340

: 00:19:21

I struggled when our banking system

went digital and online, like for the

341

: 00:19:26

longest time, I didn't, I still brought

my checks to the bank to deposit it

342

: 00:19:29

because I was not doing mobile banking.

343

: 00:19:31

I was not doing mobile deposits

because what happened to the picture

344

: 00:19:35

of the check, my mom still refuses.

345

: 00:19:37

My in laws, they will not do it.

346

: 00:19:39

They won't do digital banking at all.

347

: 00:19:41

They still take the check

into the physical bank.

348

: 00:19:45

But what ultimately convinced

me is the game behind me.

349

: 00:19:48

I don't know if you can see it.

350

: 00:19:50

So Scott, he spent two years trying

to convince me and in the process he

351

: 00:19:54

basically created this game and he

goes, Talia, you have to understand

352

: 00:19:56

this because it's important.

353

: 00:19:58

Yeah.

354

: 00:19:59

So it's a board game.

355

: 00:20:01

It's a tabletop board game.

356

: 00:20:02

And it just explains the basics of

blockchain technology and how Bitcoin

357

: 00:20:07

mining works and what a Bitcoin.

358

: 00:20:10

And once I got over that mental

hurdle, then I was willing to read

359

: 00:20:14

a book and listen to a podcast.

360

: 00:20:16

And then, you go straight down

the rabbit hole once you do that.

361

: 00:20:18

But for me, that's what it took was seeing

something digital represented in physical

362

: 00:20:24

form, because I'm stuck in that mindset.

363

: 00:20:26

Noelyn: Maybe you should

try and do that over here.

364

: 00:20:29

Because the challenge is

the unlearning process.

365

: 00:20:32

Once you are calm enough to unlearn,

then it opens up eventually for sure.

366

: 00:20:39

Yeah,

367

: 00:20:40

Tali: Yeah, I think for all of us older

people we just have the mental hurdle

368

: 00:20:45

To hop over because the world has

changed so much since the time we were

369

: 00:20:49

young, when I was going to university,

nobody had a computer in their room.

370

: 00:20:53

Nobody had a phone.

371

: 00:20:55

You had to walk from the

dorm to the computer center.

372

: 00:20:58

And the screen was just The

black screen with the white,

373

: 00:21:02

letters that would go across.

374

: 00:21:03

There's only one font.

375

: 00:21:04

And the entire computer

center had one printer.

376

: 00:21:07

So you have to send your

print job to the printer.

377

: 00:21:10

And then you gotta walk over and stand

in line to pick up your print job.

378

: 00:21:14

If you go back even

further, when I was younger.

379

: 00:21:16

We were playing in the dirt, we were

using little marbles that you kind of

380

: 00:21:20

flick into little holes that you dig out

with your nails, really basic stuff, my

381

: 00:21:24

kids can't relate because they grew up

in the age of iPads, they were already

382

: 00:21:29

out, the phones were already out.

383

: 00:21:30

And so for them, it's not a huge

mental shift for us and older people.

384

: 00:21:35

It is such a mind boggling chasm

that you have to cross mentally.

385

: 00:21:42

Noelyn: is not technology, this is money.

386

: 00:21:45

What do you mean the money is changing?

387

: 00:21:48

That's huge.

388

: 00:21:49

Yeah.

389

: 00:21:52

Tali: This theft that's been going on of

their life, because if you think of your

390

: 00:21:58

job as you, or when you're earning money,

you're exchanging your lifetime for money.

391

: 00:22:03

If you're being paid.

392

: 00:22:05

Per the value that you provide, right?

393

: 00:22:08

So to realize suddenly that you have

worked your whole life and people

394

: 00:22:13

have been stealing from you the

whole time and you didn't realize it,

395

: 00:22:16

that's a really hard truth to take.

396

: 00:22:19

Noelyn: Yeah.

397

: 00:22:20

Actually, my talk at El

Salvador was talking about that.

398

: 00:22:22

If you get to listen to it on

YouTube, that's that's exactly

399

: 00:22:25

what I was talking about.

400

: 00:22:27

I grew up in an era where I was

told education is the key to the

401

: 00:22:31

future, but you didn't mention that

the kind of education I'm receiving

402

: 00:22:35

is not really as beneficial to me.

403

: 00:22:38

It's supposed to just make me work

for the government and not, and

404

: 00:22:43

like really working for myself or

really stop working at some point.

405

: 00:22:48

It's unfortunate.

406

: 00:22:49

You find someone's a doctor, they earn

good money, but Still, you have to

407

: 00:22:53

figure out how you can fight inflation.

408

: 00:22:55

So you have to become a doctor.

409

: 00:22:57

You have to know taxes.

410

: 00:22:58

You have to know investment.

411

: 00:23:00

All in one as a single person.

412

: 00:23:02

And if you never had the

knowledge, you end up losing a lot.

413

: 00:23:06

And yeah, I guess that's where we're at.

414

: 00:23:09

Tali: I gave a talk at a homeschooling

conference a few months ago, and , in

415

: 00:23:13

the talk I said to the parents who are

sitting there, they're all homeschooling

416

: 00:23:16

parents, and I said, when you talk to

your kids about growing up and getting

417

: 00:23:20

a job or choosing a career, how many

jobs do you tell them they would be

418

: 00:23:25

working, once they choose a career path?

419

: 00:23:28

And they all said one.

420

: 00:23:29

And I said that's just not true.

421

: 00:23:31

Because everybody has to have two,

there's one job to earn your money.

422

: 00:23:37

And there's a one job to

try to keep your money.

423

: 00:23:39

What kind of time does that leave

you to focus on your family?

424

: 00:23:42

You mentioned that family is very

important to you and you're doing

425

: 00:23:45

this so that one day you can have the

family life that you envisioned, right?

426

: 00:23:50

But if you're working two jobs

just to survive, then the kids

427

: 00:23:55

take a backseat because they must.

428

: 00:23:58

And a lot of people are in that boat.

429

: 00:24:00

Noelyn: I was listening to I think

Natalie Brunel also was talking to

430

: 00:24:04

the crypto couple the other day,

and she mentioned the same thing.

431

: 00:24:08

She was told as a lady, work, become the

girl boss, because she was doing that

432

: 00:24:16

so that she can get to a point where

she's It feels financially confident

433

: 00:24:20

to be able to have kids in this case.

434

: 00:24:22

Unfortunately we need two incomes

in a household and that's just it.

435

: 00:24:25

So even the ripple effects, we're going a

little bit deeper, but I feel the ripple

436

: 00:24:30

effect of fiat is women are delaying,

but men are getting frustrated out of it.

437

: 00:24:37

I don't know about your generation.

438

: 00:24:39

You guys are good.

439

: 00:24:40

Us, people don't even want to get

married anymore because they're

440

: 00:24:44

thinking, what's the point?

441

: 00:24:46

And this is not just something

that's happening in the West.

442

: 00:24:49

Kenya is quite influenced

even by the Western culture.

443

: 00:24:53

So even here you get Girls just want to

work and work, and with that, you delay

444

: 00:25:01

marriage, you delay a lot of things.

445

: 00:25:03

Men are also frustrated, they're

also trying to , gain a living.

446

: 00:25:05

The societal effect of the family is

also, it can be felt, or rather it

447

: 00:25:11

will be seen in the days coming, yeah.

448

: 00:25:15

Tali: I was going to ask you about

that because, my understanding

449

: 00:25:19

of the African culture is that for

women, children is their wealth.

450

: 00:25:23

Is that still up until recently?

451

: 00:25:26

Is that still something

that's very cultural?

452

: 00:25:28

Noelyn: Yeah, okay

wealth for female, girls?

453

: 00:25:32

In most cultures, actually, when a

man gives birth to kids the wealth is

454

: 00:25:38

mostly transferred to the male child.

455

: 00:25:40

They still assume that the female

is supposed to get married, and

456

: 00:25:44

be supported by the husband.

457

: 00:25:46

But of course now with things

changing even we find that not

458

: 00:25:49

many ladies are getting married.

459

: 00:25:51

So Progressed families, you'll be

able to get yourself in a situation

460

: 00:25:55

where you can be able to get married,

although you can get people to

461

: 00:25:59

get inheritance from your father.

462

: 00:26:02

But the other side of the coin is

When you can't be able to have that,

463

: 00:26:07

you are forced into probably getting

married so that you can be able to

464

: 00:26:11

support if you want to, that is.

465

: 00:26:14

But with that, you can get things

like abuse, which is quite common.

466

: 00:26:21

depend on your husband.

467

: 00:26:23

Unfortunately, it's really financial

financially depending on your husband.

468

: 00:26:27

We have lots of cases of abuse in Kenya.

469

: 00:26:29

I think of late, especially since

COVID period the rate of divorces.

470

: 00:26:35

I'll just speak for Kenya because it's

not generally in all African countries.

471

: 00:26:39

I can say we saw a huge rise

in cases of divorce because

472

: 00:26:43

finances was a major issue.

473

: 00:26:46

And with it, you get to the root of it.

474

: 00:26:48

Especially if the woman is dependent

on the man, 100 percent for

475

: 00:26:51

finances, it's it's a huge deal.

476

: 00:26:55

So that's why you've talked

about Bitcoin Dada and Marcel.

477

: 00:26:59

I guess for her she saw that and

she was like, let's educate the

478

: 00:27:03

women because after all, women are

the majority population and around

479

: 00:27:08

here, women are quite the educators.

480

: 00:27:10

If you educate a woman, they

educate their husband, they

481

: 00:27:13

educate the community around them.

482

: 00:27:16

That way, we can have women being

able to take care of their families,

483

: 00:27:19

taking care of themselves, whether

you are married or unmarried.

484

: 00:27:24

Yeah, and you don't have to undergo

abuse, especially if you can't

485

: 00:27:28

be able to afford to take care

of yourself and your children.

486

: 00:27:32

Tali: Is that something that is on

the back of your mind, not your mind,

487

: 00:27:35

but is that something that's on the

back of the minds of the women today,

488

: 00:27:39

even as they consider marriage,

that if they ever become 100 percent

489

: 00:27:44

dependent on the husband financially,

that they can be subject to abuse?

490

: 00:27:49

Is it that common?

491

: 00:27:51

Noelyn: Yes, it is.

492

: 00:27:52

It is.

493

: 00:27:52

In fact I can say that growing

up with my aunties they, Will

494

: 00:27:56

tell me go times have changed.

495

: 00:27:59

Don't go ahead and get married to a

man until you have something going on

496

: 00:28:03

for yourself and even they encourage

you even as a married woman, have

497

: 00:28:09

something going on for yourself.

498

: 00:28:11

Besides that is anything

will happen to your husband.

499

: 00:28:14

And as I've mentioned, investment in

Kenya is not knowledge that's Available

500

: 00:28:21

to everyone, not, we live a day at

a time hand to mouth, basically.

501

: 00:28:26

So not so many people are

investing for their futures.

502

: 00:28:30

And if you find, if the husband

is the head of the household or

503

: 00:28:34

the breadwinner, once he leaves

most women are left without means.

504

: 00:28:38

So it is in the back of the

minds of a lot of women.

505

: 00:28:43

Majority of the women right now, it's

been conversations that have been going

506

: 00:28:47

on for a decade, if I can say a decade

plus, where they're encouraging women to

507

: 00:28:53

have something going on for themselves.

508

: 00:28:56

Tali: So there is, it sounds

like there's a new standard.

509

: 00:28:59

That sounds, I don't know if that's

the right word, new standard, but

510

: 00:29:02

instead of getting married young and

starting a family right away, the new

511

: 00:29:06

generation of women, they are trying

to be more independent and delaying

512

: 00:29:12

marriage and delaying childbearing.

513

: 00:29:15

Noelyn: Yes.

514

: 00:29:15

I would say this is especially

mostly for the really educated,

515

: 00:29:20

like highly educated women.

516

: 00:29:22

That's majority, not all of

them, but majority of them.

517

: 00:29:25

We have also the extreme cases.

518

: 00:29:28

So in the rural areas, girls

are getting married young, but

519

: 00:29:32

it's also for the same reason.

520

: 00:29:34

You figure out as a girl, I need

somebody to take care of me financially.

521

: 00:29:38

So that's the other side of the coin.

522

: 00:29:41

Just to avoid having to be

a burden to your family, you

523

: 00:29:44

decide, okay I'll get married.

524

: 00:29:45

And of course that has it's benefits, but

also now the abuse you were talking about.

525

: 00:29:52

Tali: It's so fascinating that

this is the new movement.

526

: 00:29:55

It's also really encouraging

because women have a way of figuring

527

: 00:29:59

things out and then passing on.

528

: 00:30:01

So if you become educated yourself,

not just in traditional education,

529

: 00:30:07

but in financial education,

You are the best person to pass

530

: 00:30:11

it on to the next generation.

531

: 00:30:13

Noelyn: I'd love to.

532

: 00:30:15

Tali: Yeah.

533

: 00:30:15

Okay.

534

: 00:30:16

So tell me about your work.

535

: 00:30:18

You sound like you're so busy.

536

: 00:30:20

You're traveling all over the place.

537

: 00:30:22

What are you doing?

538

: 00:30:24

Noelyn: Oh getting into Bitcoin.

539

: 00:30:26

Fascinating.

540

: 00:30:26

So after screaming around on

Twitter I was approached or rather

541

: 00:30:31

I started looking for Bitcoin jobs.

542

: 00:30:33

That's the first thing you do because

you realize you can't be able to work

543

: 00:30:36

in fiat and And I'll be able to keep on

buying fiat or selling fiat for Bitcoin.

544

: 00:30:45

So I was like, I need to find

ways to just get Bitcoin.

545

: 00:30:49

And but before that I was too focused

on getting the message out because I

546

: 00:30:55

was like, you know what, if everybody

comes into Bitcoin and we find people

547

: 00:30:59

coming into Bitcoin, then I wouldn't

have to my work will be easier.

548

: 00:31:03

So I ended up working in

a company called Exonumia.

549

: 00:31:06

Exonumia carries out translation of

Bitcoin literature into African languages.

550

: 00:31:13

For example, I speak Swahili in Kenya.

551

: 00:31:16

Swahili is spoken by

around 200 million people.

552

: 00:31:19

So you find Kenya, Tanzania, Rwanda.

553

: 00:31:23

Uganda uh, a bit of Burundi, also Malawi

even Sudan, a bit of South Sudan, you

554

: 00:31:31

can find people who understand Swahili,

Somalia, so it's a widely spoken

555

: 00:31:36

language and I was requested to maybe

start translating Bitcoin content into

556

: 00:31:43

Swahili and it was exciting for me.

557

: 00:31:46

I managed to translate the

Block Size Wars by Jonathan and

558

: 00:31:49

Layered Money by Nick Bhatia.

559

: 00:31:52

Exonima has actually done

translation in Uganda.

560

: 00:31:55

It has done translation in South Africa.

561

: 00:31:58

It has done translation in

West Africa, Ghana, Nigeria.

562

: 00:32:02

It was a good team to, to work with.

563

: 00:32:04

The translation is still ongoing, because

the major barrier, actually, in Africa

564

: 00:32:08

is We speak different languages and

not so many people understand English.

565

: 00:32:14

So if you want to get Bitcoin to them

educating them through a language

566

: 00:32:19

they understand will be the first

thing that you can be able to do.

567

: 00:32:23

And so after doing the

translations I happened to meet

568

: 00:32:28

built with Bitcoin foundation.

569

: 00:32:30

They have built a school in Kenya.

570

: 00:32:31

The, some place called Ukambani, so

we went there, we with a team of also

571

: 00:32:38

Bitcoiners in Kenya there's Master Gwantai

was organizing it, and he approached me

572

: 00:32:43

and he was like, we're going here, we're

going to teach people in the rural area

573

: 00:32:47

of Ukambani about Bitcoin, if you have

time, you can join us, so I joined him.

574

: 00:32:52

On that trip and while we were

there, it was teaching Bitcoin

575

: 00:32:57

already is difficult enough.

576

: 00:32:58

Teaching Bitcoin in Swahili,

teaching Bitcoin in uh, one of

577

: 00:33:03

us had to go all the way teaching

Bitcoin in now the native language.

578

: 00:33:07

Kenya has 22 ethnic tribes.

579

: 00:33:09

So he was teaching in one of

the ethnic tribes that's Kamba.

580

: 00:33:13

So when we were done teaching

we realized the whole group of

581

: 00:33:18

people, in fact, they asked us now

you've told us about this Bitcoin.

582

: 00:33:21

So how can we get Bitcoin?

583

: 00:33:23

Because they understand hard money.

584

: 00:33:25

One of the ways in which people

invest in Kenya is through land.

585

: 00:33:31

So that's the go to when it comes

to long term investment when people

586

: 00:33:35

make a huge amount of money they

go directly into real estate.

587

: 00:33:39

So they understood the concept of

inflation, we didn't have to go in depth

588

: 00:33:44

explaining to them because everybody can

say that Kanyashiling is devaluing fast.

589

: 00:33:49

And they asked us now, can

you send us this Bitcoin?

590

: 00:33:52

And it was unfortunate.

591

: 00:33:53

We couldn't be able to send them.

592

: 00:33:54

Where we were, the internet

connection was terrible already.

593

: 00:33:57

And even if you wanted to, there

was only one person in the room

594

: 00:34:00

who had a smartphone because this

was a group of it was a school.

595

: 00:34:06

And now we were teaching the parents.

596

: 00:34:08

And the teacher now was the

only one with a smartphone.

597

: 00:34:12

So we even thought maybe even

if you wanted to send it to the

598

: 00:34:15

teacher, Bitcoin is something

that you should own by yourself.

599

: 00:34:18

It was, it will not

make sense practically.

600

: 00:34:21

And it was on that day, for some reason,

there was a tweet being sent out by

601

: 00:34:28

another an African that If somebody

could figure out, that was Ogin from

602

: 00:34:34

Namibia, if somebody could figure out

how to put Bitcoin into feature phones,

603

: 00:34:38

it would be really amazing for Africa.

604

: 00:34:42

And I saw that tweet I retweeted

it, and I was like, yes, please,

605

: 00:34:46

somebody figure, figure out also now

Kogatso from South Africa, that's

606

: 00:34:52

the founder of Machankura, also.

607

: 00:34:55

So that we can be replied that he

should be given two weeks to do it.

608

: 00:35:00

And within two weeks, he

delivered much on Kura.

609

: 00:35:04

And it was amazing.

610

: 00:35:05

Right now we can be able to

send sats to anyone, even my

611

: 00:35:09

grandmother in the village.

612

: 00:35:11

And even though people have smartphones.

613

: 00:35:13

Internet connection is still quite

expensive for most people to afford.

614

: 00:35:18

So it was a game changer.

615

: 00:35:20

I remember actually saying this is

going to be a game changer for us in

616

: 00:35:24

terms of adoption of Bitcoin in Africa.

617

: 00:35:26

Because not so many people really

have to understand inflation.

618

: 00:35:31

They don't have to go through everything.

619

: 00:35:33

I've gone through understanding risk.

620

: 00:35:35

If they can just see Bitcoin in which

they can send and receive and purchase

621

: 00:35:41

goods with it, then We can be able

to get massive adoption in Africa.

622

: 00:35:47

So I did that, but also after I

translated Nick Bhatia's book, I

623

: 00:35:52

thought that it was necessary for us

to have African stories being told.

624

: 00:35:56

So I decided to get into podcasting

with the Bitcoin layer and

625

: 00:36:02

where I was like, maybe there's

something going on in Africa.

626

: 00:36:05

I.

627

: 00:36:05

I would love to report on it especially

in terms of Bitcoin adoption, because

628

: 00:36:11

I don't know whether you've tried

researching on Bitcoin in Africa, there's

629

: 00:36:14

very few stories, but right now, at least

there's a lot, but when I was Trying

630

: 00:36:19

to, I think what I got was just one

documentary and it was very outdated.

631

: 00:36:25

Yeah.

632

: 00:36:26

When I was trying to learn,

633

: 00:36:27

Tali: Scott and I have talked to

Master Guan Tai actually about the

634

: 00:36:31

game, because we were trying to

figure out how to get it into Africa.

635

: 00:36:34

And we were trying

636

: 00:36:36

Noelyn: get it, I'll buy it for sure.

637

: 00:36:39

Tali: we were trying to figure that out.

638

: 00:36:40

Cause he was like, why

don't you send us one?

639

: 00:36:42

I'm like, sure.

640

: 00:36:43

We'll send you one.

641

: 00:36:43

And I think the shipping cost was

something like 450 for a game.

642

: 00:36:49

I'm like, what?

643

: 00:36:50

450?

644

: 00:36:51

Nobody can, how are we going to do that?

645

: 00:36:53

So we still have to figure that out.

646

: 00:36:55

I'm very curious when you're talking

about the guy who stepped forward

647

: 00:36:58

and was able to now bring Bitcoin

to people in the rural areas what's

648

: 00:37:03

the system that's in place right

now that's allowing that to happen?

649

: 00:37:06

Noelyn: Okay.

650

: 00:37:06

So in Kenya we use mobile money.

651

: 00:37:10

I don't know.

652

: 00:37:12

Have you heard of M Pesa?

653

: 00:37:13

Yeah, so we use M Pesa to

send and receive money.

654

: 00:37:17

Credit, we, I keep on saying we

skipped the phase of credit cards

655

: 00:37:21

I think it's a good thing that we

didn't have to go through that.

656

: 00:37:24

Not so many people have credit cards.

657

: 00:37:26

And one of the ATM cards here, that's

what, although, most of the merchants

658

: 00:37:31

in fact, if I can say a huge number of

merchants accept payments using M Pesa,

659

: 00:37:36

it's a mobile money payment system.

660

: 00:37:39

And what made it really gain adoption in

Kenya was the fact that it uses the U.

661

: 00:37:45

S.

662

: 00:37:45

D.

663

: 00:37:46

platform.

664

: 00:37:47

So with U.

665

: 00:37:48

S.

666

: 00:37:48

D.

667

: 00:37:48

You do not need the Internet to

able to send and receive because

668

: 00:37:52

it uses the telecommunication, the

mobile network, the television.

669

: 00:37:56

So that's the unstructured

supplementary service data.

670

: 00:37:59

So this is what is used to send SMS.

671

: 00:38:03

Thank you very much.

672

: 00:38:04

Yeah, so with that now, when the

lightning network was came about,

673

: 00:38:10

it was easy to implement the

lightning network on this service.

674

: 00:38:13

So that's what he used to come up with a

service and integrating the both of them.

675

: 00:38:19

I have no idea how he

did it, but it works.

676

: 00:38:22

It works seamlessly.

677

: 00:38:24

It works smoothly.

678

: 00:38:25

Onboarding process is

faster than using an app.

679

: 00:38:29

All you have to do is just

send someone a USS day code.

680

: 00:38:32

Once they dial it, they have and register.

681

: 00:38:35

They have themselves a wallet.

682

: 00:38:36

It is still custodial, though currently

in the works we have rather, he has

683

: 00:38:42

managed to come up with a self custody

way also for the feature phones.

684

: 00:38:48

So that should be, if you

can join us in South Africa.

685

: 00:38:52

In January we'll be able to

demonstrate the self custody

686

: 00:38:55

of the same feature phones.

687

: 00:38:57

And I think now that's going to be

even a major game changer for us.

688

: 00:39:01

Because we don't want as a

company to hold anyone's Bitcoin.

689

: 00:39:05

The point is getting people

to be self sovereign.

690

: 00:39:08

And even with the regulations in Africa.

691

: 00:39:12

What I can say, it's a gray area

unfortunately we had an instance in

692

: 00:39:16

Tanzania and Uganda where we had to,

we had challenges with the regulatory

693

: 00:39:21

regulations there celebration in

other countries, the USSD we managed

694

: 00:39:27

to integrate the WhatsApp API.

695

: 00:39:30

So people in Tanzania and Uganda

can still be able to transact.

696

: 00:39:34

But at the end of the day, the main

is to get them into self custody.

697

: 00:39:38

So once we can be able to release the

product, then it will be faster and

698

: 00:39:45

actually much better for us to just

have people hold their own Bitcoin.

699

: 00:39:49

Tali: When you're talking about

self custody, are people resistant

700

: 00:39:53

at all about the responsibility?

701

: 00:39:56

Especially in light of stories that

come out where people's Bitcoin got

702

: 00:40:00

swiped while we were in El Salvador,

there was a guy who lost 25 Bitcoin.

703

: 00:40:06

Noelyn: I saw that.

704

: 00:40:07

I felt quite sorry for the guy.

705

: 00:40:09

I remember I was heading to the

airport and I saw that story.

706

: 00:40:13

That was quite unfortunate.

707

: 00:40:15

So two instances.

708

: 00:40:16

Binance is still a major player in Kenya.

709

: 00:40:20

majority of Africa Binance,

still a huge player.

710

: 00:40:23

So we have the youth who are tech savvy.

711

: 00:40:27

They do not care to get into the in

depth of it well, I'm trying to reach.

712

: 00:40:33

So they, you find that there's still

having the coins on exchanges, but I

713

: 00:40:40

realized I could have also been among

those people who are comfortable having

714

: 00:40:45

my coins in an exchange because of

course you realize and you just decide,

715

: 00:40:49

okay, I'm going to just buy Bitcoin,

but I could have easily also ended up

716

: 00:40:53

just having my coins in an exchange.

717

: 00:40:55

So what I can say is They have

not really either been reached by

718

: 00:41:01

the education for self custody.

719

: 00:41:04

Because unless you go ahead and take the

step towards learning this, or somebody

720

: 00:41:09

approaches you with with this information,

you don't really go searching for it.

721

: 00:41:13

All you are, you're contented you have

Bitcoin, you don't really care why it

722

: 00:41:17

is, whether it's on, or rather you don't

understand the difference between it

723

: 00:41:21

being in self custody or in an exchange.

724

: 00:41:23

But that's the major challenge that

I guess I have and also other African

725

: 00:41:28

educators have with this group of people.

726

: 00:41:31

But I don't think anybody will be against

it once they, because we've seen FTX.

727

: 00:41:36

They've been affected with it.

728

: 00:41:38

So what usually happens exchanges

go down, people lose money and they

729

: 00:41:42

come and say Bitcoin is a scam.

730

: 00:41:45

And that thing was just, it was

unfortunate they didn't even get the

731

: 00:41:48

relevant education to understand this.

732

: 00:41:50

I guess that's a challenge For us

here as educators to be able to get

733

: 00:41:54

this information across and I'm sure

there wouldn't be any resistance

734

: 00:41:58

when I figured out self custody.

735

: 00:42:00

I was like, good, because after

all, we keep, I've told you land is

736

: 00:42:04

the major way of investment here.

737

: 00:42:08

People do keep their title deeds.

738

: 00:42:10

They don't have a problem with that.

739

: 00:42:11

I don't think keeping 12 seed

phrases will be a problem.

740

: 00:42:15

Yeah.

741

: 00:42:16

Tali: That's just something

that I personally struggle with

742

: 00:42:18

just because I'm not tech savvy.

743

: 00:42:20

And I was talking to another woman last

week, we were talking about how there

744

: 00:42:26

are a lot of things in life where we feel

like we have a solid understanding on.

745

: 00:42:30

And then when it comes to Bitcoin, I

always need to rely on a translator.

746

: 00:42:35

It's like a whole foreign

language by itself.

747

: 00:42:36

If something develops or if

somebody raises a question, I always

748

: 00:42:40

have to look to somebody else to

translate the impact of that to me.

749

: 00:42:45

And that makes me feel somewhat helpless

in a way, just because I don't speak

750

: 00:42:50

the language, even though we've been

studying and we understand the impact.

751

: 00:42:55

And You know what I'm saying?

752

: 00:42:57

It just it's this sort of

unsettling feeling of I know, I

753

: 00:43:00

don't know, and I always have to

rely on translators a little bit.

754

: 00:43:04

Noelyn: I understand you fully.

755

: 00:43:06

Even for me, even though I can

say I work for a Bitcoin company,

756

: 00:43:10

it's mostly the developer who

understands most of the things.

757

: 00:43:14

I It usually just comes to my attention.

758

: 00:43:16

Maybe there's a problem when people

are talking about VIP 300 VIP.

759

: 00:43:21

What?

760

: 00:43:21

Lightning going things.

761

: 00:43:23

So that's when maybe I'll put that put in

the effort to just understand the basics.

762

: 00:43:28

But I don't feel we really have to

understand all of this as long as We

763

: 00:43:34

understand the main thing, which is

self custody, and it's in a safe manner.

764

: 00:43:39

Um, All of these things, they

can just go on as usual, yeah.

765

: 00:43:45

Yeah, that's very

766

: 00:43:46

Tali: Yeah, and I think sometimes

knowing too much actually hurts you.

767

: 00:43:50

So just knowing the basics and Almost

I don't know if you guys use PayPal

768

: 00:43:55

or Venmo or something over there.

769

: 00:43:57

But the payment systems, the

people that dab, we don't really

770

: 00:44:01

know what goes on in the back.

771

: 00:44:02

And if they release a new

version, nobody pays attention.

772

: 00:44:05

You just agree, and then you

just have the software update.

773

: 00:44:09

We almost have to get to that

point of trust in this system.

774

: 00:44:12

Once you have your seed phrases

written down and just let the

775

: 00:44:16

technical people take care of that.

776

: 00:44:18

And just make the experience so

user friendly that it doesn't

777

: 00:44:21

even have to cross our mind.

778

: 00:44:29

Noelyn: a huge factor.

779

: 00:44:30

At least you've heard of

Bitcoin Ekasi in South Africa.

780

: 00:44:35

That's it.

781

: 00:44:35

So there's a educational brother,

a circular economy in South

782

: 00:44:39

Africa called Bitcoin Ikasi.

783

: 00:44:41

They've done a fantastic job in terms of

education, teaching the community there.

784

: 00:44:45

And people there are open,

they're open to using Lightning,

785

: 00:44:48

they're open to self custody.

786

: 00:44:50

And right now, even now that

there's Options like phoenix,

787

: 00:44:54

solitary and self custody there.

788

: 00:44:57

They're open to using it.

789

: 00:44:58

So Same case in Ghana.

790

: 00:45:00

We have a bitcoin doer And so what the

educators I know are doing we are focusing

791

: 00:45:07

on wholesome education give people all

the options and Tell them allow them

792

: 00:45:11

to decide which one they prefer to use.

793

: 00:45:14

I like Lightning because it's cheaper for

me to move money in Lightning, yeah, as

794

: 00:45:19

compared to having to go to self custody.

795

: 00:45:21

But if there's Bitcoin I never

want to touch for the next a

796

: 00:45:25

few years, it's in safe custody.

797

: 00:45:28

Yeah.

798

: 00:45:29

Tali: And I think there's just

bugs that need to be worked out

799

: 00:45:32

as the system continues to evolve.

800

: 00:45:34

For example, Scott and I, we were in

El Salvador and it was our first time.

801

: 00:45:40

At a circular economy where we

were able to use our Bitcoin.

802

: 00:45:44

We were so excited, but two

of our wallets didn't work.

803

: 00:45:48

We were trying to make Bitcoin

payments and they didn't work.

804

: 00:45:50

I'm like, Oh my God, no, I'm

stuck because we didn't carry cash.

805

: 00:45:54

We're like, Oh, cash is so old school.

806

: 00:45:56

We're using Bitcoin here, but there

are bugs that need to be worked

807

: 00:45:59

out because we ended up having to

get friends to help us who had.

808

: 00:46:02

Two different wallets.

809

: 00:46:04

So there were four wallets that we

were experimenting with there and

810

: 00:46:08

Yeah, so it's just you almost have to

see it as a game Like you're playing

811

: 00:46:13

and you're having fun in the process

while you're learning So, okay.

812

: 00:46:18

So before we wrap up, what would

you say to women who are sitting

813

: 00:46:21

on the fence about Bitcoin?

814

: 00:46:23

Noelyn: For women who are sitting

on the fence about it, I know a lot.

815

: 00:46:26

If you're a woman and you have

been looking to add value in the

816

: 00:46:34

world, and you're yet undecided

on where you want to work, I feel

817

: 00:46:41

Bitcoin is a good place to start.

818

: 00:46:43

It may feel complex, it may feel very

male dominated, but there's so many ways

819

: 00:46:48

in which you can be able to input in it.

820

: 00:46:51

I still insist that I think

women are better at educating.

821

: 00:46:57

Yeah, there's a way you can be able to

put out information that people can be

822

: 00:47:03

able to understand a majority of the

population, especially when it comes to

823

: 00:47:08

young kids and the children of the future.

824

: 00:47:12

So the more women you can get

talking about Bitcoin, it will

825

: 00:47:16

be easier for kids to transition.

826

: 00:47:18

And so.

827

: 00:47:20

if there's any woman who is considering

getting into Bitcoin, you're welcome.

828

: 00:47:24

We need you here.

829

: 00:47:26

We will welcome you.

830

: 00:47:28

It's a very wonderful place,

a very wonderful community.

831

: 00:47:32

Especially I have Worked in corporate

and I keep on saying I've not

832

: 00:47:37

seen as much support in what I do

than what I've seen in Bitcoin.

833

: 00:47:41

It's fascinating to me.

834

: 00:47:44

And I'm sure even in Bitcoin you can

find a way to work flexibly and get

835

: 00:47:50

time to focus on family and Also get

to earn as compared to earning in fiat.

836

: 00:47:59

So yes you're just welcome to

join this amazing community of

837

: 00:48:03

people and let's fix the world.

838

: 00:48:06

Tali: Awesome Thank you so much.

839

: 00:48:08

That was really enlightening.

840

: 00:48:09

I'm sorry that I don't know

more about how things work in

841

: 00:48:12

Africa I feel so blind When I

842

: 00:48:14

Noelyn: okay.

843

: 00:48:15

Welcome to join us here.

844

: 00:48:17

Tali: I would love to visit Africa

845

: 00:48:19

.

one of these days, Thank you for listening to this episode.

846

: 00:48:23

Did you enjoy it?

847

: 00:48:25

Wasn't our guest absolutely fabulous.

848

: 00:48:27

I just love every woman's

story on this show.

849

: 00:48:30

Everybody has a unique perspective

and yet, we all come to the same

850

: 00:48:33

place, which is Bitcoin is an

important part of our lives.

851

: 00:48:36

If this story has inspired you

and you would like to know

852

: 00:48:39

more, go to www.orangehatter.com.

853

: 00:48:43

Get involved.

854

: 00:48:44

Join and our reading group, send

me an email and introduce yourself.

855

: 00:48:47

I will be so happy to hear from you.

856

: 00:48:49

The best way you can support this

show is to spread the word Tell

857

: 00:48:54

every woman, you know, to listen in.

858

: 00:48:56

You never know how they will

be impacted by these stories.

859

: 00:48:59

I appreciate you so much.

860

: 00:49:01

See you next time.

861

: 00:49:02

Bye.