Vivian S - People will come to Bitcoin for one of three reasons: love of self, love of others, or a crisis.

Vivian: 00:00:03

Money and economics are just so important because when we're

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financially sound, we feel safe,

we feel secure, we feel empowered.

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We feel like we have control and

we have more freedom and autonomy.

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I see in my practice, women who, maybe

are single and they just don't really

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focus on these kinds of things or

women who are not in good partnerships.

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They get compromised or hobbled, with

not being knowledgeable about these things

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or they get stuck or they lose their

own sense of power in the relationship.

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And so I think it really is

important for women to look and

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to learn and to face these issues.

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Tali: Hey, everybody.

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Welcome to Orange Hatter.

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: 00:00:44

My mission for the Orange Hatter podcast

is that after tuning in and hearing

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about everyday women's stories and

their path to Bitcoin, you'd think,

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Hey, if Bitcoin made a difference for

them, maybe it could do the same for me.

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I'm so glad you're here.

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And I know you're going

to love today's episode.

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Welcome.

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We can't wait to welcome you.

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Tali: Hi Vivian.

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Welcome to Orange Hatter.

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Thank you so much for

spending time with us tonight.

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Vivian: Thank you so much for having me.

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This is very exciting.

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Tali: Let's start by talking a

little bit about your background.

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Vivian: Sure.

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Yeah.

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I'm a clinical psychologist and

I have my own private practice.

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And I see a pretty diverse client,

population working with people

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with a variety of different

issues, depression, anxiety.

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I try to use an integrative approach with

people like including healthy lifestyles

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into the interventions or the treatments

that I do with them having that nice mind

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body, balance and overall good health as

the way that I tend to work with people.

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Tali: Cool.

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So let's dive right into Bitcoin.

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When did you first come across

this weird thing called Bitcoin?

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Vivian: Yeah.

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And I guess it was probably

about 13 years ago.

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, my husband has been actively involved in

it for that amount of time in terms of

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just studying Bitcoin, investing making

connections in the community, like going

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to conferences and meetup groups and

thinking about ways to promote it from a

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business perspective and supporting, All

those who are trying to bring it more,

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mainstream and I've just had this Cursory,

understanding and involvement in it.

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I've been, because I've been raising

kids and I've just been developing

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my own business and anything to do

with money is not my preference.

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I don't really, it's not my go to.

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I have a lot of anxiety about money.

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But I, found it to be really interesting.

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I do listen to podcasts on occasions and

I check the Bitcoin prices and I get when

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it goes up and sometimes, read articles.

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And, when I see that new businesses

are, open to, accepting Bitcoin,

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I think that's really cool.

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And like seeing other

countries adopting it.

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I have an interest in it , but

I've been dipping my toe in it,

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maybe waiting a little bit, but

not taking the full plunge yet.

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And, but it's something that I do

find it's really interesting and

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really exciting and just to see how

the, community has just grown and

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developed and I think it's really cool.

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And I love, the idea of your podcast

and especially talking to women

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about their experiences with it.

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I think it's really awesome.

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Yeah.

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Tali: You mentioned that you

feel anxious about money.

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I think that's something a

lot of women probably share.

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Can you elaborate a little bit about

that and maybe just look at it from

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your professional point of view?

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What might be the cause and

how we should deal with that.

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Vivian: Yeah I know just personally

for me, it's one, like I said, I.

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I'm not a numbers type of person.

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Like I don't, I don't really like looking

at numbers, but I think just money.

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I don't think, in, in growing

up, I had a really good I don't

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know, schooling about money.

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My mother would spend money very well.

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And she would give you

the shirt off of her back.

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And, with my dad, he was

much more I don't know.

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I guess I wouldn't really say he

was conservative because he would

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buy things that he really liked.

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But there was always tension

around, money and finances, even

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though as a family, , you know,

my parents did fairly well.

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And I just feel like I just was

never fully educated into saving

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or how to invest in money.

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and it's not really having any

problems with money but just it

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just a lot of anxiety, around it.

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Both my husband, I have our own businesses

and During the Obama years we pay our

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taxes, but we were like hit with like

when you're like 6, 000 extra we'd

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owe and then 8, 000 extra we owed.

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And it was just very stressful.

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And you're like, okay,

where's, this coming from?

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I guess it must have been around the.

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2008, you know, where things

were happening in the economy.

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And I think having also one's own

business that you have to think about

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money and you have to learn about

money and be careful with your money.

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And you are more aware of when

your money is being taken from you

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with taxes and things like that.

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Where for example, I have a lot of

friends who work For big companies

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or they work for the government and

they don't, I don't think that they,

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at least in my experience, have the

same worries or anxieties that I do.

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There's always feels like there's

much more of a safety net.

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And when you have your own

business, you don't have that.

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And you have to just be, you see the

flow of things coming in and going out.

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And so you do have to be much more

aware and mindful about money.

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And yeah, I definitely

feel the stress of it.

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And, I definitely see it in the work that

I do with my clients where and I think

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it's something that's not really talked

about but I look at financial stress and

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anxiety is as a big component of anxiety.

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And, I often see it , in my clients.

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Especially now with, inflation and

and sometimes people, having to worry

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about, their jobs or they're not

getting the raises that are deserved

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and people having to deal with this.

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And so I, I think that there

is a lot of anxiety when it

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comes to, thinking about, money.

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And I think that the idea and what Bitcoin

represents Hopefully can give people a

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little bit more peace of mind with that.

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Tali: You mentioned that your

husband has been in the Bitcoin

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space for quite a while.

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In the beginning when he became

so actively involved and you

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were busy building up your

business and raising your kids.

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What did you think about Bitcoin?

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Vivian: know, it's I think I

thought it was very, I didn't, I

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don't even know what I thought.

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I thought it was strange.

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I thought, oh, is this a scam?

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Is this a, I don't know.

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I don't know.

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I don't.

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I don't know.

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I just didn't know what it was.

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I was just like, I don't really know.

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But I would, listen and I would watch

and, we have a good relationship.

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So I, trust him in terms of, the things

that he's pursuing and he's doing.

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So I listened and would watch things

but it, probably took a good, I said 13

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years, it's probably been like 10 years

where I was not really paying attention

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or involved in probably over, I would

say over the last three to five years,

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I've been more paying more attention

and doing more self study on my own.

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Tali: Okay, in your practice, you're

seeing clients coming in with anxiety

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issues and a lot of it has to do

what's going on in the world today.

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Financial stress inflation, et cetera.

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How do you coach your clients in

dealing with what they cannot change?

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Vivian: I think with anxiety, right?

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Like when something is really

threatening to us that it's

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either fight flight or freeze.

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Sometimes we're just like,

oh, I don't know what this is.

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I don't know what to do.

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And we just freeze because we

don't know how to handle it.

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Sometimes.

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We stick our head in the sand I

don't want to look, I don't want to

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know, I don't want to think about it.

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But the best thing that we can do

is to face it and to deal with it.

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So part of it is getting my clients to

actually look at what the problem is and

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to try to best prepare and how to best

Protect themselves and utilize resources

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that they have, maybe ask for supports

if needed , being willing to sacrifice.

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Like sometimes you have to let some

things go in order to move forward.

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So all of that I think is part

of dealing with that anxiety.

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To actually to look and to pay attention

and to gather information that's

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going to help you to move forward

and face whatever it is that you have

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to face and also to recognize that

there may be some sacrifices that

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you have to make in that process.

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You may have to let some things go that

you don't necessarily want to let go of.

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Tali: Okay, so let's say hypothetically,

I am a retiree and I have whatever

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retirement income I have, social security

or some kind of private something.

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And I'm watching the purchasing

power of the same amount of

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money I'm receiving every month

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go down and I'm filled with anxiety

because I'm afraid there's gonna come a

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day when I'm not gonna have enough And

there's nothing for me to fall back on.

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How do you coach someone in that state?

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I'm trying to visualize how they

can work through that and help

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themselves from your point of view

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Vivian: Yeah and I think that

from a professional standpoint,

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first, of course, is acknowledging

sort of the challenges of that.

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And then, trying to put

supports and supports.

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Again, like letting some things

go like that, that you're going

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to have to make some changes.

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You're going to have to adjust.

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You're not going to be able to be

living exactly as you were living.

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And so trying to figure out,

okay what are the priorities?

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What are the things that I can let go of?

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And then what are also, are there

other places that I can get, supports?

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And I think, that would be a way

from a, psychological perspective

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that I would work with them.

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Now, I can't, professionally suggest

Bitcoin to people but I think , that's the

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interesting thing about, Bitcoin, right?

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Is that it's a way for people to

invest and also to Secure some

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of the money that they have.

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Tali: I think With enough time, yes,

if you're talking about money that

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you need to use immediately, then it's

risky because it is still very volatile.

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But I do know that I don't know I'm

assuming if I'm literally that person I

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just described, and I have spent my entire

life with a certain set of expectations.

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I work hard, I put money away,

I retire and I live in Florida.

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You were talking about.

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Making changes, necessary changes,

in the face of what's happening

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in our system today in our

society today with inflation, etc.

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I think a lot of people would find it

very difficult to change their picture

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of what retirement should look like.

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I know that.

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My mom expected her retirement

years to be a certain way.

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And if you're trying to tell her that

she can't live in the house that she

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was planning to live out her life in,

that's You're forcing, you're almost

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forcing her to change her reality.

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So how do you coach somebody who's in that

situation where they must change the way

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they see things or see what is absolutely

necessary for themselves as a, as

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something different, with a different set

of, I don't even know, like parameters.

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Vivian: I think that those that

expectations are that, that

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is a component of anxiety too.

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It's like when we feel like we're

not meeting our own expectations

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or the other, or the expectations

of others, or the expectations

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of life, we get really anxious.

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Like we have this vision

of how things should be.

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And it's not happening.

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And that creates a lot of anxiety.

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And so part of it is, reevaluating

things and trying to have realistic

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expectations for where we are right now.

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And a lot of times with anxiety, people

are either thinking about past things,

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or they're worrying about the future

and they're bouncing back and forth.

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So you have to we all have to be a little

bit more in the now and the present.

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Okay.

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And what is actually happening now?

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And, do a reality check and having

realistic expectations, like those

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things that we wanted, or we expected.

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They're not going to happen.

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And we have to be in the now and another

component of anxiety is uncertainty.

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So if we don't know what's going

to happen, we get really anxious,

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and particularly now in a world

that's changing and everything is.

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We feel like the rug's been

pulled out from under it's

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very, anxiety provoking time.

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And there's a lot of uncertainty.

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, but, uncertainty doesn't necessarily

have to be a negative thing.

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It can be, exciting.

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It can also be good and anxiety

leads people to be also more

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pessimistic or negative.

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: 00:14:53

So trying to, look for the good

things or look for the things that

257

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are positive is really important.

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But I think you're right.

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It's very hard to change those

expectations or those things are the ways

260

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that we think that life is supposed to be.

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It's very difficult because when we are

coming out of that, there's also grief.

262

: 00:15:15

Like it's sad, it's sad that we had

invested in so much and we had wanted

263

: 00:15:20

so much, or we expect, and then,

these things aren't gonna happen.

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And so sometimes people are

hit with grief on top of that.

265

: 00:15:26

So it's very challenging.

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: 00:15:28

Tali: Yeah.

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That grief component That was the

word that I wasn't able to actually

268

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pin down, but that's absolutely

true . I think for a lot of people,

269

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there is grief in the financial

situation they find themselves today.

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: 00:15:42

So we Bitcoiners like to say

that Bitcoin is hope and the hope

271

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means that it's in the future.

272

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So how do you balance that?

273

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If you live in the now in today's

reality, Bitcoin is still a

274

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very volatile asset class.

275

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It's not yet the money standard that

we hope it to be and yet if we live in

276

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the present, I'm just trying to think

of um, can you give some practical

277

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tips for people who are feeling anxious

about what's happening and Coping with

278

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it today without Necessarily looking

in the future to Bitcoin as hope.

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Vivian: I think that this is the

time of sacrifice that a lot of times,

280

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again, when we're about to make a

change, there's things that we have

281

: 00:16:31

to give up, we have to sacrifice.

282

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And it's hard.

283

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And again, doing a reality check of This

isn't what I thought it was going to be.

284

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this will be a hard time.

285

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It's temporary, but I may

need to, cut back on things.

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I may need to, utilize the resources that

I do have checking the resources you do

287

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have and trying to utilize, what you have.

288

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Right now.

289

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And then the other piece of it in order

to change is we have to take risks and

290

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we have to be willing to take a risk.

291

: 00:17:02

And so there is a risk in

investing in something like Bitcoin.

292

: 00:17:06

it may be scary for a lot of

people because it's not something

293

: 00:17:09

that's, familiar or known.

294

: 00:17:11

It's something that, there's, it's, A

lot of naysayers out there about it.

295

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You're you may be doing things differently

than your family or your friends are.

296

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But in order to change again sometimes we

have to sacrifice things and we have to

297

: 00:17:27

take a little bit of a risk in order to

move in order for things to be different.

298

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And when we're going to move into

something, we can either jump in with

299

: 00:17:36

both feet yeah, I'm going to go all in.

300

: 00:17:39

Or the other thing you can do is

you can, it can be gradual change.

301

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So maybe you like.

302

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Okay well, I'm just going to invest

a little bit and I'm going to watch

303

: 00:17:47

and I'm going to see how that goes.

304

: 00:17:49

And then you feel a little bit more

comfortable and you're talking to more

305

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people or you're seeing and maybe you're

like, you're watching things change.

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Like you're seeing new businesses open.

307

: 00:17:59

In, in terms of taking Bitcoin

or you're seeing another country.

308

: 00:18:05

Okay.

309

: 00:18:05

He's okay this is moving.

310

: 00:18:06

It's there's things happening.

311

: 00:18:07

It's growing that, and that gives

you a little bit more confidence.

312

: 00:18:11

Okay.

313

: 00:18:11

Maybe I'll, invest.

314

: 00:18:13

A little bit more and that's going to

help, I think in terms of feeling, hope

315

: 00:18:19

also in seeing that things are changing

that things are happening you can

316

: 00:18:25

even see it, I think in the political

spectrum, there are some candidates

317

: 00:18:28

out there that are, open to Bitcoin.

318

: 00:18:30

I think that's pretty cool too.

319

: 00:18:32

Cool.

320

: 00:18:32

But that's, that's part

of the process of change.

321

: 00:18:35

And, I think circling back , you

know, I always talk with clients

322

: 00:18:40

about the impetus for change.

323

: 00:18:41

What's the reason to do something

so for example, if somebody is

324

: 00:18:45

going to, I don't know, try to

lose weight or something like that.

325

: 00:18:50

And what I find in this is just

my own way of thinking about it.

326

: 00:18:52

I don't know if anybody else

thinks it this way, but I think

327

: 00:18:55

that sometimes we do things.

328

: 00:18:57

Either like for the love of ourselves.

329

: 00:18:59

So it could be, for vanity.

330

: 00:19:01

So maybe like people just want to have

money or maybe it could be because,

331

: 00:19:05

I want to secure, my own future or Or

it could be the love of somebody else.

332

: 00:19:11

And why I want to do this for my kids,

or maybe because I saw somebody else

333

: 00:19:15

do it and they had benefits to it.

334

: 00:19:17

So it's either the love of self or the

love of others, or there's a crisis.

335

: 00:19:22

So sometimes like a crisis

is an impetus for change.

336

: 00:19:24

Like, Oh, wow.

337

: 00:19:25

I lost all of my my other investments.

338

: 00:19:28

So I'm going to try Bitcoin now.

339

: 00:19:30

Like That's, or, the

government took all my money.

340

: 00:19:32

So I'm gonna I want to find

a secure way to invest.

341

: 00:19:36

There's a crisis that happens.

342

: 00:19:38

And that will be the impetus for change.

343

: 00:19:39

But for some people, even a crisis

isn't going to be an impetus for change.

344

: 00:19:46

So it's like somebody who's a smoker

and they're on, they got emphysema and

345

: 00:19:50

they're on a machine and they're still

smoking and they're really sick, but

346

: 00:19:54

they're still going to keep doing it.

347

: 00:19:55

So there's going to be some people

that don't necessarily buy into it.

348

: 00:19:58

And then I think so there's the impetus

for change like, why am I doing this?

349

: 00:20:02

What's important to me?

350

: 00:20:04

And then there's the

process of change and.

351

: 00:20:08

At first we may not even know we need

to change or do anything differently.

352

: 00:20:12

And then we may be like, Oh, I

need to do something differently

353

: 00:20:15

in terms of my investments.

354

: 00:20:16

And so you start, you're sitting on the

fence and you're gathering information.

355

: 00:20:20

And so maybe it is, you're

listening to podcasts.

356

: 00:20:23

Maybe you're talking to somebody

who's already invested in Bitcoin,

357

: 00:20:28

or you go to a meetup group.

358

: 00:20:30

And then when you have enough

information and you feel

359

: 00:20:33

comfortable, then you make a move.

360

: 00:20:34

So you may decide, okay, I'm going

to invest a little bit on it,

361

: 00:20:39

and so you gradually get into it.

362

: 00:20:42

So I think, there is a process.

363

: 00:20:45

For change and it can either be gradual

or again, you can jump in with both feet.

364

: 00:20:51

Change is also hard and there's

a lot of resistance to it.

365

: 00:20:54

Most people don't like to change

because as I said, there's a sacrifice.

366

: 00:20:58

So it's time okay, I have to

invest this time and learning about

367

: 00:21:01

this, or I'm going to have to move

money over to invest in Bitcoin.

368

: 00:21:06

And again, it's scary and I'm doing

it differently than other people.

369

: 00:21:09

And people may judge me for it.

370

: 00:21:12

And so trying to Get out of our own way.

371

: 00:21:14

In, in terms of, thinking about, okay,

what are the roadblocks, are important

372

: 00:21:18

and to have some confidence and, and

just takes and be willing to take a

373

: 00:21:22

little bit of a risk is important.

374

: 00:21:24

And I, and I think, like the other

thing, like I think about too, is that,

375

: 00:21:28

particularly for women, and this is why

I'm so glad that you're doing this podcast

376

: 00:21:33

is that money and economics are just so

important because when we're financially

377

: 00:21:39

sound, we feel safe, we feel secure.

378

: 00:21:42

We feel empowered.

379

: 00:21:43

We feel like we have control and

we have more freedom and autonomy.

380

: 00:21:48

And that's why, being financially

sound and knowledgeable, it's just

381

: 00:21:51

so important, especially for women.

382

: 00:21:54

And, cause I see in my practice, women

who, maybe are single and they just don't

383

: 00:21:58

really focus on these kinds of things or

women who are not in good partnerships.

384

: 00:22:03

And then they, get compromised or

hobbled, with not being knowledgeable

385

: 00:22:10

about these things or they get

stuck or they lose their own sense

386

: 00:22:13

of, power in the relationship.

387

: 00:22:15

And so I think it really is important

for women to look and to learn and

388

: 00:22:21

to face these issues, which I'm

on the cusp of doing myself great.

389

: 00:22:27

I'm grateful.

390

: 00:22:27

I have a good partner who

shares everything with me.

391

: 00:22:29

He, he, we talk about it and he's this

is ours and, which is, it's very good.

392

: 00:22:33

But for some women that's not the case

and they end up getting stuck or they're

393

: 00:22:37

in a very, poor financial situation.

394

: 00:22:41

And this is why it's so important for

women to learn about these things.

395

: 00:22:46

Like I had a friend who was telling me

a story about a woman that she knew.

396

: 00:22:52

Who, and she didn't, my friend

doesn't know a lot about Bitcoin.

397

: 00:22:55

And I was talking to her a

little bit about what I knew.

398

: 00:22:58

And she was telling me about this other

woman who discovered that her husband.

399

: 00:23:04

And she was the breadwinner

of the family actually, but she

400

: 00:23:08

trusted her husband and he took a

lot of money out of her savings.

401

: 00:23:13

And he said that he got scammed by

Bitcoin but he wanted a divorce.

402

: 00:23:17

And I said, that's really weird.

403

: 00:23:20

Like I was like, I don't understand

how it could be scammed by Bitcoin.

404

: 00:23:22

And then it hit me.

405

: 00:23:23

I was like, he took that

money and invested in Bitcoin.

406

: 00:23:28

So she couldn't get it.

407

: 00:23:29

And this is what my hypothesis is.

408

: 00:23:31

I don't know if it's true or not, but

this woman had no awareness that is

409

: 00:23:36

something that could even be possible.

410

: 00:23:39

And so she believed that she was

being scammed, but no, he actually

411

: 00:23:42

stole her money, and this kind

of stealing of money, whether it's

412

: 00:23:46

in a relationship or whether it's

government or, whatever it is.

413

: 00:23:51

I think as women, we need to be,

again, aware of our finances and

414

: 00:23:55

Bitcoin's a great way to have some

security and I guess these are

415

: 00:24:02

just things that I think about.

416

: 00:24:03

Tali: Yeah, I homeschooled and

Scott and I from the very beginning

417

: 00:24:08

felt like we were exceptionally

unprepared for real life, even though

418

: 00:24:13

we both graduated from brand name

schools, because we didn't know the

419

: 00:24:16

fundamentals of what you just mentioned.

420

: 00:24:19

We knew how to have a checking account.

421

: 00:24:21

This is decades ago, of course.

422

: 00:24:23

We knew how to balance our checkbooks.

423

: 00:24:25

You don't have to do that today, but

we knew how to balance our checkbooks.

424

: 00:24:28

We knew that you could put money

in the mutual fund in the stock

425

: 00:24:31

market itself, but we didn't

really understand how money worked.

426

: 00:24:34

And like you said, in a healthy

household we divide and conquer, right?

427

: 00:24:39

We have women generally would take care

of the house and men generally will

428

: 00:24:43

work and take care of the finances.

429

: 00:24:44

But like you said, things change.

430

: 00:24:47

And you don't necessarily have to

be in an unhealthy relationship

431

: 00:24:51

to be in a situation where

you need to know this stuff.

432

: 00:24:55

And so I wish that schools today

would prepare our young people for the

433

: 00:25:01

realities of life, like those things,

like they're really super practical stuff,

434

: 00:25:05

instead of studying a bunch of things

that are philosophical and conceptual.

435

: 00:25:09

I understand why we need to study history.

436

: 00:25:11

But if I had to choose one, to learn

how money works versus memorizing

437

: 00:25:17

a bunch of dates and wars and names

of kings and queens and generals.

438

: 00:25:21

I would rather they learn the

practicalities of what money

439

: 00:25:24

is and how to take care of

it throughout their lifetime.

440

: 00:25:28

Vivian: Yeah, absolutely.

441

: 00:25:29

Absolutely.

442

: 00:25:30

And also just it helps to prepare,

like if there's, again, if there's a

443

: 00:25:35

crisis or if there's an unexpected,

you need to know what, what to do and

444

: 00:25:41

how to, and just to protect yourself.

445

: 00:25:42

It's the best way to protect yourself.

446

: 00:25:44

And as you said, oftentimes

we're not really educated.

447

: 00:25:49

And even as a psychologist, there were no.

448

: 00:25:52

Doing business classes or, in terms of

running a business as a psychologist,

449

: 00:25:56

all things, I had to learn.

450

: 00:25:57

And I had to figure it out.

451

: 00:26:00

I'm better for it.

452

: 00:26:02

I still don't like it.

453

: 00:26:03

It's not my, it's not my favorite.

454

: 00:26:05

It's not my go to, I just, I

really like working with people

455

: 00:26:08

and, but I think it's important.

456

: 00:26:11

It's.

457

: 00:26:12

Because it does provide us with

all those things like safety,

458

: 00:26:15

security, control, freedom, autonomy.

459

: 00:26:19

Yeah, it's very important.

460

: 00:26:21

Tali: I also found it really interesting

that you mentioned When you and your

461

: 00:26:24

husband were running your two separate

businesses, you felt the pain of

462

: 00:26:29

the money going out of your account,

running a business because you see it.

463

: 00:26:35

Running a business is such a

emotional rollercoaster and

464

: 00:26:40

you're solely responsible.

465

: 00:26:42

You have no safety net.

466

: 00:26:43

You are it.

467

: 00:26:44

How your business does, how

much money comes in every month.

468

: 00:26:48

You are it.

469

: 00:26:49

And then to see it so casually taken out

of your account, either through taxes or

470

: 00:26:57

fees or whatever license or Local, I don't

even know what to call those things like

471

: 00:27:05

there are so many requirements that fall

under fees that you have to pay on top of

472

: 00:27:11

Vivian: Yes.

473

: 00:27:11

Tali: income tax and all of that

stuff like you really Feel the pain

474

: 00:27:16

of that going out versus somebody

who's getting a paycheck where

475

: 00:27:20

everything has already been taken out.

476

: 00:27:22

So they don't like it.

477

: 00:27:23

They don't get to see that part.

478

: 00:27:24

They just see what they take home and

they feel the pain a little bit less.

479

: 00:27:28

I definitely am experiencing that now.

480

: 00:27:30

Scott and I running our own

business, our first time in our lives

481

: 00:27:33

because he for his whole career was

corporate, and I love this analogy.

482

: 00:27:39

Somebody said if your income is

visible and physical and sitting

483

: 00:27:43

in a wagon outside your house.

484

: 00:27:45

This is your harvest.

485

: 00:27:47

And you see how much is taken

out of that wagon or how little

486

: 00:27:51

you get to keep yourself.

487

: 00:27:53

You get angry, but we don't get

488

: 00:27:55

Vivian: it's infuriating.

489

: 00:27:56

I agree with you.

490

: 00:27:57

It's infuriating.

491

: 00:27:58

And I find it, it's very interesting

because I have a lot of friends that,

492

: 00:28:03

that either they or their husbands,

work in in corporate or government jobs

493

: 00:28:09

and lovely people but not really seeing

494

: 00:28:14

those effects, and I look at people

who are really struggling, and I

495

: 00:28:19

think that when you work in those

kinds of environments, you don't have

496

: 00:28:23

that same level of awareness, as the

person who, I don't know, owns the

497

: 00:28:28

restaurant or, it's just a very different

Experience and and it's, it is anxiety

498

: 00:28:37

provoking also what's going on right

now in terms of just our economy.

499

: 00:28:42

It just is.

500

: 00:28:44

It just is, but yeah.

501

: 00:28:46

Tali: Would you be okay with us talking

about maybe some of the kids that you see

502

: 00:28:50

in terms of what they feel anxious about?

503

: 00:28:52

Cause I feel like there's an epidemic

of anxious children these days.

504

: 00:28:56

Vivian: Yeah.

505

: 00:28:56

I work less with younger kids nowadays.

506

: 00:28:59

I do see a couple of adolescents and a

few, college students and they're Worried

507

: 00:29:07

about jobs and they're worried about

whether or not that they can own a house.

508

: 00:29:15

And a lot of them, at least in the

area that I live in, their parents

509

: 00:29:20

are very well to do and they want to

be able to have the same things that

510

: 00:29:25

their parents had but don't think that

they're going to be able to get it.

511

: 00:29:30

And they're worried about

student debt student loans.

512

: 00:29:33

And I don't think they're prepared,

I don't think that they're prepared.

513

: 00:29:38

And so I think, having kids

and adolescents and college

514

: 00:29:44

students learn about Bitcoin,

I think is really important,

515

: 00:29:49

Tali: It's a balancing act between

depressing them Too much and giving them

516

: 00:29:55

hope so depressing them about what's

happening today and the hope in Bitcoin

517

: 00:30:01

Vivian: Yes.

518

: 00:30:02

Yes.

519

: 00:30:02

Tali: Okay, so let's talk about

how Bitcoin has affected you

520

: 00:30:07

personally in a practical way.

521

: 00:30:08

So I know that as a whole family,

you guys have been in the Bitcoin

522

: 00:30:12

space for a while, but for yourself,

you mentioned that you started paying

523

: 00:30:17

attention only three to five years ago.

524

: 00:30:20

So since you started paying attention.

525

: 00:30:22

How has it changed the way you maybe

live practically or just in the

526

: 00:30:27

way that you view life in general?

527

: 00:30:30

Vivian: I think it's an

ongoing process, right?

528

: 00:30:33

cause I think you get used to

also living a certain way and

529

: 00:30:38

also relying on what is the norm.

530

: 00:30:41

But, as I said I see hope in that.

531

: 00:30:44

Just in looking at more, it's very simple,

but I think just seeing, businesses.

532

: 00:30:50

Being open to Bitcoin, seeing bank

machines with Bitcoin seeing, again,

533

: 00:30:57

some candidates that are very supportive

of Bitcoin, I think is important and

534

: 00:31:02

seeing, just on the world stage that

other countries are beginning to use it.

535

: 00:31:07

It's very exciting.

536

: 00:31:08

It's very exciting.

537

: 00:31:10

I still, in my mind, I'm like,

how is all this going to work?

538

: 00:31:13

But it's still, but yeah, so it's neat.

539

: 00:31:16

And it, in reality, it has been a roller

coaster, but I think that's okay, too.

540

: 00:31:20

That's also how life is.

541

: 00:31:21

It's not always stable, but I think

it's positive because it's growth.

542

: 00:31:26

And I think, when we see what's happening

to our, traditional money, situation

543

: 00:31:33

with all the debt that countries have

and the spending that's going on that

544

: 00:31:38

I think it's a Great safety net.

545

: 00:31:41

Tali: And you mentioned

that you have children.

546

: 00:31:44

How are you and your husband transferring

your Bitcoin knowledge to them?

547

: 00:31:50

Are they open to it?

548

: 00:31:53

Vivian: They're teenagers.

549

: 00:31:54

Our teenagers and, sometimes

kids aren't always in line

550

: 00:31:57

with, what their parents are.

551

: 00:31:59

They, they can listen.

552

: 00:31:59

I think they're interested, but

they also make fun of us, as well to

553

: 00:32:04

uh, o it's like, oh, yeah, Bitcoin.

554

: 00:32:06

But then they're really curious.

555

: 00:32:07

They are like, how much

Bitcoin do you have?

556

: 00:32:10

We're not going to tell you.

557

: 00:32:12

We don't need to talk about that, so

I think there's a curiosity there,

558

: 00:32:16

but they're waiting, to see, and I

think it will be my two, actually

559

: 00:32:20

all of my kids, including my youngest

had a job at 14 for a while and so

560

: 00:32:26

they're also learning about money.

561

: 00:32:28

And so they're having to.

562

: 00:32:30

Yeah.

563

: 00:32:31

You know, they're already complaining,

but I don't want to have to pay taxes.

564

: 00:32:34

And, there's some anxiety, I think, or

worry they have about money as well.

565

: 00:32:38

And so we're trying to educate

them and talking about spending,

566

: 00:32:45

saving and investing in

different ways to do that.

567

: 00:32:48

And, including Bitcoin, I think

that's, part of our job as

568

: 00:32:53

parents to try to help them to be

financially sound and responsible.

569

: 00:32:58

Tali: What about the rest of your family?

570

: 00:33:01

Are you able to share Bitcoin with them?

571

: 00:33:03

Vivian: Big sigh.

572

: 00:33:05

We have not been successful at

I don't think anyway, in terms

573

: 00:33:09

of having family adopt Bitcoin.

574

: 00:33:14

We have not.

575

: 00:33:15

I know what I would say is my sister,

I think, regrets not investing earlier.

576

: 00:33:21

She may have been, I haven't

really talked with her about it.

577

: 00:33:23

I know she has some friends that have

invested in it, so she may at this point

578

: 00:33:27

have, invested somewhat in it, but it's,

I think it's a big change for people.

579

: 00:33:33

It's very different and it's hard for

people to go to do things differently,

580

: 00:33:39

but that's growth, when you can really

go against the norm, that's courageous.

581

: 00:33:45

No.

582

: 00:33:45

And and it's exciting.

583

: 00:33:47

So

584

: 00:33:49

Tali: Okay.

585

: 00:33:49

So let's do a psychoanalysis.

586

: 00:33:51

When we talk to people who are

in a position where the monetary

587

: 00:33:58

system hasn't disappointed them.

588

: 00:34:00

It's worked out for them and

their identity is wrapped up

589

: 00:34:05

in the results of their effort

that have worked out for them.

590

: 00:34:10

How do we talk to them about Bitcoin

without attacking their identity

591

: 00:34:17

that's wrapped up in all of that?

592

: 00:34:19

Vivian: that's a really good question.

593

: 00:34:20

That's a really good question.

594

: 00:34:22

I think that, messaging is like in order

also to get other people to change.

595

: 00:34:28

A lot of times we have to

repeat the message in several

596

: 00:34:32

different ways at different times.

597

: 00:34:35

Before people are willing to hear it.

598

: 00:34:38

You know what I mean?

599

: 00:34:38

Also just because we voice things.

600

: 00:34:41

Again it offers an impetus for change,

but it's not a guarantee you can try

601

: 00:34:45

to, educate people, but it may not be.

602

: 00:34:51

I don't know, it may not be

worth it for them to change.

603

: 00:34:53

You know what I mean?

604

: 00:34:54

Maybe and that circles back to what's

the impetus for change what would

605

: 00:34:57

be the reason for them to change?

606

: 00:35:00

And it may not be possible for

some people, unless, you can find

607

: 00:35:05

what would really motivate them.

608

: 00:35:08

Like maybe for some people, it might

be well, you could actually, lose less

609

: 00:35:11

money or make more money or, whatever.

610

: 00:35:13

Maybe that's it.

611

: 00:35:14

Or maybe it's well, it's going

to benefit you in this way.

612

: 00:35:18

Or maybe they see that it's

been beneficial to you.

613

: 00:35:23

Maybe that would be that

they're like, oh, okay.

614

: 00:35:25

Maybe I'll try that.

615

: 00:35:27

It's hard to know what is going

to cause people to other people to

616

: 00:35:31

change or maybe it's their own crisis.

617

: 00:35:34

I think that all you can

really do is you can try to.

618

: 00:35:40

Talk about, but some people,

they're not going to care.

619

: 00:35:43

, everybody has their things that they

prioritize or that is important to them.

620

: 00:35:48

And so I don't think I can't even think

of what the magic would be that would

621

: 00:35:53

get somebody to to be interested in,

or to get it, I don't know, and maybe

622

: 00:35:58

it would take just more people doing

it, where it becomes more of a norm and

623

: 00:36:02

people like, oh, okay this is happening.

624

: 00:36:04

So I'll invest now as it becomes

more of a norm, because I think it is

625

: 00:36:08

really hard for people to do things

differently than what other people, or

626

: 00:36:13

to be more, Independent or it's not an

easy thing to do because you get judged.

627

: 00:36:20

I

628

: 00:36:20

Tali: That is so true.

629

: 00:36:22

Okay.

630

: 00:36:22

Any last recommendations to women who are

still sitting on the fence about Bitcoin?

631

: 00:36:27

Vivian: I think it's just, continue

to talk to people and learn about it

632

: 00:36:32

and, consider making a little bit of

a sacrifice, whether it's that time

633

: 00:36:36

of learning about it or investing a

little bit of money and just seeing

634

: 00:36:42

what it's like, what does it feel

like just to have a little bit of

635

: 00:36:46

Bitcoin, maybe that will feel good.

636

: 00:36:48

Maybe it'll reassure you.

637

: 00:36:49

Maybe you'll find it fun watching

it go up and seeing things open up.

638

: 00:36:55

They go.

639

: 00:36:56

There's another store

that's accepting Bitcoin.

640

: 00:36:58

Awesome.

641

: 00:36:59

Yeah.

642

: 00:37:00

Tali: Great.

643

: 00:37:00

Thank you so much.

644

: 00:37:01

That was really fun.

645

: 00:37:03

I really enjoyed your

professional diagnosis

646

: 00:37:06

Vivian: Thank you.

647

: 00:37:07

is.

648

: 00:37:09

Like watching, it is it's exciting like

it's very and this is one last thing

649

: 00:37:14

I want to say, with just all the

craziness that's going on right now and

650

: 00:37:18

just the inflation and it's so horrible.

651

: 00:37:21

It's just horrible, and stressful, but

the idea of something new and something

652

: 00:37:26

different working is really exciting.

653

: 00:37:29

It's really, cause we need something new.

654

: 00:37:31

Cause it's not working right now.

655

: 00:37:33

And I think.

656

: 00:37:35

That's exciting.

657

: 00:37:36

That's very exciting.

658

: 00:37:37

So thank you so much, Tali.

659

: 00:37:39

It was fun.

660

: 00:37:41

Tali: Thank you for

listening to this episode.

661

: 00:37:43

Did you enjoy it?

662

: 00:37:44

Wasn't our guest absolutely fabulous.

663

: 00:37:46

I just love every woman's

story on this show.

664

: 00:37:49

Everybody has a unique perspective

and yet, we all come to the same

665

: 00:37:52

place, which is Bitcoin is an

important part of our lives.

666

: 00:37:56

If this story has inspired you

and you would like to know

667

: 00:37:58

more, go to www.orangehatter.com.

668

: 00:38:02

Get involved.

669

: 00:38:03

Join and our reading group, send

me an email and introduce yourself.

670

: 00:38:06

I will be so happy to hear from you.

671

: 00:38:08

The best way you can support this

show is to spread the word Tell

672

: 00:38:13

every woman, you know, to listen in.

673

: 00:38:15

You never know how they will

be impacted by these stories.

674

: 00:38:18

I appreciate you so much.

675

: 00:38:20

See you next time.

676

: 00:38:21

Bye.