Vivian - "I belong to the one-child generation and felt massive guilt...until Bitcoin"

Tali: 00:00:00

Hi, everyone.

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Welcome to Orange Hatter.

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Today you're listening to a

conversation I had with Vivian.

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thank you, Vivian, for coming on the show.

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I'm so excited to dive right in

because I think you have a really

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interesting story to share.

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Can you start by giving

us a little intro on your

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Vivian: background?

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Yeah, for sure.

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So my name is Vivian Chang, and

I was born and raised in Beijing.

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And then later on spent my

entire adulthood abroad in

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North America and Europe.

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So right now I'm in West Coast, Canada.

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I'm relatively new in Bitcoin.

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Actually, I'm only a class 2021, but

have have the privilege to really delve

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into the space in the past few years.

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So right now I work In marketing and PR

for Bitcoin companies and I'm, I'm running

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my own podcast called Life with Bitcoin

focus on the human side of Bitcoin.

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Tell

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Tali: Us more about Life with Bitcoin.

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Vivian: Yeah.

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So I was working with many

Bitcoin companies and because

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I'm in marketing and PR.

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So I'm usually the one who was like

reaching out to different conferences

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and podcasts to try to place my

clients onto the show as speakers.

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And what I realized is that there's

so many great Bitcoin content out

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there, but a lot of them are very

technical and they talk about what's

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been happening today in our society.

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And those are very timely and

relevant and important content.

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What I realized is that not everybody is

technical, not everybody likes numbers.

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And let's face it.

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We live in a quite chaotic

and can be depressing worlds.

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And I find these content a little bit.

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stressful sometimes personally, and they

are like, and should anxiety inducing.

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So I actually feel like, Oh my God,

like what I'm going to do in this

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world after watching these content.

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And I, when I first got into the

space the biggest hurdle for me to get

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Bitcoin was actually the technical side.

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I'm not a technical person at all.

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I didn't grow up liking numbers

and I wasn't good with numbers.

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So for the longest of time, I

didn't take the time to learn

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it because I thought it was.

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Too technical for me because I'm not

from a computer science background where

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I'm not a cryptographer and it is just

too complicated for me to even bother

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to try it until I'm in the space and I

realized this is not the case and it was

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actually the human side of Bitcoin that

get me hooked provides how it provides

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freedom, how it provides options.

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For people, not only in

emerging markets, but also for

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basically everyone in the world.

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And this is when I realized, oh,

we're there's, there's a gap in

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this space that we, we should focus

more on the human side of Bitcoin.

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Cause if you think about it, it

is the Bitcoiners, the individual

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people, the combination of individual

people are driving this force

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is all of us building, hodling.

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Spreading the word and bringing

new people onto the space that the

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wall ultimately make the difference.

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So what I really wanted to do is to

focus on individual transformations,

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focus on individual Bitcoiners

journeys and change and transformations

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through the lives of Bitcoin.

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And we're also very early to the

point that we don't necessarily see

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a lot of Bitcoiners in real life.

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So I thought it's a great opportunity

for us to get to know Bitcoiners

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individually and to learn from Bitcoiners.

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Tali: Yeah, our a mission is so aligned.

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Very, very exciting to be talking

with you, especially as women.

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I think we feel very isolated in even

within the small space of the Bitcoiners.

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And so connecting with

other women is so important.

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So I just want to applaud you.

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I think you're doing amazing work

and, you know, keep going, keep going.

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This is very exciting.

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Do you mind if we dive just a

little bit into your background?

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Just, you know, setting a stage for people

to understand where you're coming from.

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You're originally from Beijing.

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Can you tell us a little bit more

from the money side of things,

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what life was like growing up,

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Vivian: right,

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growing up.

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I guess I was a very

normal kid growing up.

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And I belong to the one child generation.

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So I'm the only child in my family.

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It's, I guess it's It's good in a way

because they have all the resources

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and love and cared only for me

because I'm the only child, right?

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I think growing up, I've, what

I've witnessed about money is the,

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the transition from cash economy

to a digital currency economy.

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I remember when I was growing

up when I was a kid, then

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people were using cash all over.

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I don't think China has a particular.

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Phase of credit card, even so the

transition between cash to mobile

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payment happened almost instantly.

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Or within a very short period of time,

And most people don't have a credit card.

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They literally just transitioned from

cash to paying with WeChat Alipay those

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mobile payment giants that's out there.

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And even just a couple of years back

when I went back, there are vendors.

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They don't take cash anymore.

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If you want to buy something with

cash, they would actually say

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that, Oh, we don't take cash.

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You pay with your WeChat.

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And it's weird because.

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Cash is fiat and they

don't even take fiat.

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So the mobile payment side of things

already got so sophisticated that

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you can't go out without your phone.

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You need to tap your, like traffic card,

the, the transportation card when you're

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getting on a subway, getting on a bus, and

you need to literally pay for everything

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with your phone on WeChat or Alipay for

caps some places still take cash, but

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I've experienced in the past is that

they don't take cash anymore, and if you

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have like a 100 yuan bill, And sometimes

they simply don't have the change and

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they wouldn't even let go of the business

cause you just cannot deal with money.

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So it was definitely very

interesting growing up witnessing.

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That change and versus in Western world,

like in Canada credit card is very normal.

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Some people have multiple but in

China, I don't see many people even

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have the need to get a credit card.

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Tali: I did not realize that.

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That's, that's a really interesting fact.

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I feel like using a credit card changes

our perception of what money actually is.

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So when we spend money, if you have

a lot of cash and you're handing

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it out as you're spending it,

you feel the pain of it leaving.

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But when you're swiping the credit card,

you don't necessarily feel the pain.

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So if in your culture, you completely

skipped that credit card phase, what

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kind of psychological change toward money

did you notice or not notice between

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using cash that they can feel in their

hands and just swiping with a phone.

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Vivian: Right.

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The process will be the same, like the

trend, the psychological transition

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will be the same because now you're

removing the face of actually giving

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out the money and it's all very digital.

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So the, the pain of spending

is obviously removed.

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And with credit card, obviously

you can kind of have a limit.

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You have a credit limit and you can.

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Spend more money before you even have it.

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And even though trying to kind of

skip that phase of having credit card,

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there are many like businesses that are

dedicated to small loans and they make

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it so user friendly that you can just.

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Borrow money at a rate very, very

fast without much credit available.

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So this is another problem that the

young generation of China is facing

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is that they are kind of getting

sucked into these little loans.

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And then before they realized.

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They're like, Oh my God, I'm, I owe

2, 000, which is a lot for let's

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say a 20 year old who's, , still

receiving money from their parents.

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But want that extra upgrade

for lifestyles and they get

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hooked into these small loans.

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And then when I realized it's like, Oh

my God, I can't, I can't deal with this.

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And the interest pile up.

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So the pain of spending money is

definitely reduced by going digital.

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And even though the credit

card phase is skipped, people

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still are struggling with debt.

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Tali: That's interesting.

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So it's really kind of

like a credit card, but.

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Not called a credit card because they

are still dealing with credit, right?

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Yeah.

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So, okay, so you went into

Bitcoin through your job.

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You were initially intimidated

because of the technical side.

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How did you overcome that and become

so convinced that you are now running

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your own podcast about Bitcoin?

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Right.

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Vivian: So I'm among the lucky group

because I see so many people that are

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Trying to work for Bitcoin, trying to

switch from a fiat job to a Bitcoin job.

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And I did it backwards.

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So I was freelancing at the time and I got

a part time gig servicing Bitcoin company.

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Without any knowledge or experience,

but I'm, I'm someone who's always

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on the lookout of new things.

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I like to surprise myself.

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So I pick up the job and for

a while I didn't need to get

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into too much details of it.

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And I struggle a lot.

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Like I remember walking on the

street, listening to this podcast,

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talking about blockchain one on one.

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And I was just so overwhelmed and, and

bored, to be honest, and I, I just, I feel

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like I, I need to learn about this thing

that I'm not particularly interested in.

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And that lasted for a few months.

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And I think it's really started to shift

after I understand, I understand the

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technology enough to the point that I know

that, oh, you can use it for remittances,

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you can use it as a store value to fight

against inflation and that's during COVID.

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I'm the only child in my, in my household

and growing up, I feel this massive guilt.

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Because I feel very fortunate to have a

family full of love and care and support.

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I'm financially provided for.

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I have good resources and

opportunities around me versus,

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you know, kids in Africa, kids

in many underdeveloped markets.

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They're starving.

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There's no electricity or water.

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And these things bother me.

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So I...

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Avoided news for years, for

years and years and years.

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Like growing up, I

didn't really watch news.

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I tried to disassociate myself

from it just to avoid the massive

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guilt that I feel as a survivor

or as a, as a lucky person.

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Until I realized, Oh, like what

Bitcoin is and what impact it has

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for these markets, these places.

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And I got hooked by how much option it

gave to people, how much autonomy it gives

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people to actually pursue what's important

in life, like love, meaningful connection,

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build a legacy, self esteem, confidence.

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Like I can go on all day, but these

are the things that Bitcoin actually

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eventually allow you to pursue.

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Versus before you're just really

struggling to put a roof on

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your head, to really provide.

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materially for your family and loved ones.

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And there's very little energy and

resources left to pursue and really

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go after what it's like to be a human.

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And by working in the space that I'm

lucky enough to start to make an impact,

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and that's highly fulfilling and gave me

a sense of purpose Everybody complains

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about not enough women in Bitcoin and

I feel that myself, but they do exist.

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I've seen so many great women in

a space that I've connected with.

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We are out here.

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It's just, we're kind of outnumbered right

now, but it's not going to be forever.

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And this is partially because the content

out there are so technical and political

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or politically driven or where they talk

a lot about the macro side of Bitcoin.

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And it's all good and well,

but for women, we approach the

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world in a different landscape.

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Like, we are just completely

different from, from men, and we

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approach world in our own philosophy

in a more emotional and fluid way

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and we focus on the little things.

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while having a, having

a low time preference.

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So these things are not as

well represented in the space.

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So, I saw the gap.

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I feel like this is something

that I can contribute to.

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And for the longest of time,

I've been trying to find an angle

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for myself to be in this space.

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How can I contribute even further?

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And the thing is, I'm not necessarily

a speaker because I'm not particularly

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knowledgeable in many of the

aspects that Bitcoiners talk about.

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However what I've also realized is that

there are a lot of great speakers in the,

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in the space, but they're not enough.

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Great moderators.

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And I want to be that person.

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I want to be that person.

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I want to be able to ask good questions.

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I want to be able to evoke

insightful thinking to dig into the

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personal stories of Bitcoin to the

point that people feel relatable.

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People feel encouraged in their day to day

life to keep huddling, to keep fighting.

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To connect with underrated Bitcoiners

in the space and to share their

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personal stories, either they work

in the space or not and share with

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everybody that you're not alone.

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We're in this together and there are so

many Bitcoiners out there living their

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lives, trying to be their best self and.

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To gain strength from it and myself

as well, like I've gained so much

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good strength and energy from the

people I've, I've been connected

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with in the past few months.

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And I'm really grateful

for the opportunity.

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Tali: I think it's so true that

men and women do think differently

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and they do approach Bitcoin

from such a different lens.

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And like you said, there are

Bitcoiner women out there.

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They're less vocal.

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Maybe they're even invisible because

they value their privacy above all.

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But they are out there and

we are going to reach them.

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We're going to unite them.

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I'm going to share our strength,

our stories, which is why you

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and I are talking together today.

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Can you think of an example of someone

that you have encountered that

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their outlook in life has transformed

because of their contact with Bitcoin.

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Vivian: Oh, yeah, of course.

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So I work with a lot of emerging markets,

and that includes people in Latin America,

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Africa, Southeast Asia, and all over

the world, like Middle East countries.

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General consensus is that sometimes they

are, they were not In the space per se.

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And then before Bitcoin, it was very much

of a, I don't know if I have an option.

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So I have to, I have to play along

because I have no other option.

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But then after Bitcoin what I realized

is their whole outlook on life would

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change because now they have, they have

the opportunity to opt out, to preserve

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their, their wealth, especially in

countries with very high inflation.

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They were able to really preserve their

wealth, and to have the luxury to think on

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a low time preference, because if you're

in countries like Venezuela, Argentina was

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hyper hyper inflation, even if you want

to adapt a low time preference lifestyle

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is not possible, because you have to

provide and you have to get the most

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of what you what what's in your pocket.

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So it's you can have a low time

preference mindset, but it's just

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simply impossible to implement.

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But Bitcoin actually enables people

to to live that life, to really

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start to act upon their beliefs.

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And that's huge because it's the

alignment of action and beliefs that

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will create the most productivity.

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Otherwise, you're going to be

constantly frustrated and hopeless.

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What I encounter the most from

people in these markets are one word.

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It's hope is that

Bitcoin brings them hope.

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Otherwise.

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It's just coping.

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Otherwise it's just reacting

to their current circumstances

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without a long term perspective.

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They're just getting by by the day.

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And it's, it's frustrating.

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But Bitcoin actually offers them

hope and a positive outlook for their

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own life and their family's lives.

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And to have hope in anyone's

life, it's a huge thing.

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Tali: Yeah, for sure.

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Just to clarify for the listeners

out there who are not familiar with

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that concept of time preference, low

versus high, would you mind going

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into a little bit of detail about

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Vivian: that?

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Yes.

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When we identify ourselves as Bitcoiners,

we're not just investing in Bitcoin

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we hold a collection of values and

beliefs that make us Bitcoiners

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and one of them, one of the most

important ones is low time preference.

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So low time preference is kind

of like delayed gratification.

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It means that you're willing to

sacrifice today in order to get.

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To gain more in the future,

and when you have a high time

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preference, it means you want to...

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Maximize the satisfaction today versus

in a low time preference standard.

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You're constantly

thinking about the future.

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You are not in a rush to

see results right away.

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And you're willing to wait

and be patient and work.

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To secure more prosperity in the future.

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And women naturally have that because when

they start a family, have kids like kids,

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don't just grow like overnight, right?

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It takes decades and decades of care

and love and support for a kid to

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really mature and have their own life.

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And women naturally have that low

time preference when they become moms.

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And I've talked to many people.

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And they've told me that women moms

actually get Bitcoin way faster than

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the dads because they're open minded.

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They're constantly thinking about the

future, what's the best for their family

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and children to the point that they

already have a low time preference to

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adopt themselves into the Bitcoin mindset.

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They just don't know it yet.

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,

Tali: it's really interesting you said that because I have

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observed the opposite, actually.

312

: 00:18:37

So my husband and I, we went to two

homeschooling conferences last year,

313

: 00:18:42

and the total attendees of those two

events combined were about 25, 000.

314

: 00:18:48

So pretty massive number of people.

315

: 00:18:51

And , what we found was almost every

single family that came by, the dad

316

: 00:18:59

was the person who was in charge of

finances and when I tried to talk to

317

: 00:19:05

the moms about Bitcoin, she would say,

well, my husband handles the finances.

318

: 00:19:11

And then, and then like, that's it,

that, that ended the conversation.

319

: 00:19:14

And I have found that to be true in

a lot of places that we have visited.

320

: 00:19:19

There seems to be this sort of

delegation a natural delegation

321

: 00:19:23

because When you're running a household

and you've got kids running around,

322

: 00:19:26

you've got to divide and conquer.

323

: 00:19:28

Everybody can't do everything.

324

: 00:19:29

And so you have the men, working

and handling their finances, the

325

: 00:19:33

wife or the woman would, do the

childcare and mostly, mostly, not all

326

: 00:19:38

the time, there's a generalization,

but that's what I have found.

327

: 00:19:41

And that's one of the reasons

why I'm personally working

328

: 00:19:45

hard to reach moms out there.

329

: 00:19:47

Because like you said, they are already.

330

: 00:19:50

Looking at the world in the same way,

and yet right now, it's a delegated task.

331

: 00:19:57

Understanding money,

understanding investment.

332

: 00:20:01

It's a delegated task, but they have

direct influence over their kids

333

: 00:20:05

through just the amount of time that

they have with their kids being , the

334

: 00:20:09

majority caretaker, mostly, mostly.

335

: 00:20:11

And so that's an interesting

observation that you have made.

336

: 00:20:14

Yeah, tell us more, like

give us some examples.

337

: 00:20:17

Are you able to describe some people that

you have come across and maybe you and

338

: 00:20:22

I can put our heads together and see how

we can communicate better to one audience

339

: 00:20:26

Vivian: or another.

340

: 00:20:28

Yeah.

341

: 00:20:28

So I learned about this

through one of my guests.

342

: 00:20:31

So I talked to Billy Junjo

and he's a content creator

343

: 00:20:36

for Bitcoin in South Korea.

344

: 00:20:38

And he creates Bitcoin content on

YouTube and, and a Bitcoin newsletter.

345

: 00:20:43

And what he shared is that that the moms

in the household are more open minded.

346

: 00:20:48

And because they, they are the primary

caregivers in the, in the household,

347

: 00:20:53

that they're naturally thinking about.

348

: 00:20:55

the future of the kids more

the future of the family more.

349

: 00:20:58

And they have and women are,

women generally have less ego.

350

: 00:21:02

They don't have as much ego

as, as man to always be right.

351

: 00:21:06

They don't have the

need to always be right.

352

: 00:21:07

And when versus, and that's what he

observed too, is that the man

353

: 00:21:11

usually have this mindset of,

of I already know everything.

354

: 00:21:15

And I don't want to admit that I

have something that I don't know.

355

: 00:21:19

So there's the ego parts that men have

to get across when they come into the

356

: 00:21:25

space of Bitcoin, because it's a very

complex subject and it takes a lot

357

: 00:21:30

of, you need to properly go down the

rabbit hole and make time and effort

358

: 00:21:36

to learn about this before you can

fully understand, and a lot of people.

359

: 00:21:41

May not be able to get past the ego

stage to admit that everything they've

360

: 00:21:48

told what they're used to around them

is a lie and that takes courage and that

361

: 00:21:54

takes The ability to unlearn yourself

and not everybody can do that quickly.

362

: 00:22:01

Tali: That's really interesting.

363

: 00:22:03

I wonder if that has some

cultural aspect to that.

364

: 00:22:09

So Scott and I, when we travel, we

were experiencing that most Bitcoin

365

: 00:22:15

meetups are, I would say 90 percent men.

366

: 00:22:18

It's very rare for us to come

across a meetup that has at

367

: 00:22:22

least 40 to 50 percent women.

368

: 00:22:25

Very, very unusual.

369

: 00:22:27

And mostly what we have encountered is.

370

: 00:22:30

The men would come to the

meetup and the wife would stay

371

: 00:22:33

at home and watch the kids.

372

: 00:22:35

Yeah, that's what I've seen too.

373

: 00:22:37

Yeah.

374

: 00:22:37

So we're trying to have more family

events Scott and I have a meetup.

375

: 00:22:42

If we can get the whole family involved,

then it is no longer a man or woman thing.

376

: 00:22:46

It's just a family thing.

377

: 00:22:48

Vivian: That's such a good idea

because if you think about all these

378

: 00:22:51

Bitcoin conferences if any of them

are listening is that if you have a

379

: 00:22:54

dedicated babysitting area where you

get all of the kids together and do like

380

: 00:22:59

kids workshops for Bitcoin, and we have

seen a common creators for children's

381

: 00:23:03

book in the space and maybe we can get

them together to host something online.

382

: 00:23:08

to have the kids create a piece of art to

go through the book together and have some

383

: 00:23:14

opportunities for them to get exposed to

Bitcoin in a engaging and informative way

384

: 00:23:20

to the level that they can understand and

really grasp the idea in a very young age.

385

: 00:23:26

The potential is huge because

you're spending the least amount

386

: 00:23:29

of effort and making the most

amount of impact in the next

387

: 00:23:32

20

388

: 00:23:32

Tali: years, right?

389

: 00:23:33

that's what I observed when we went

to the homeschooling conferences is

390

: 00:23:37

you have the main event, the main hall

where all the vendors are, and then

391

: 00:23:40

they have the speakers and everything,

but they have a dedicated children's

392

: 00:23:44

room and it's divided into, I think,

two or three groups based on age.

393

: 00:23:49

And while the parents are roaming around,

the exhibit hall, the children are

394

: 00:23:54

building friendships and doing activities

and they look forward to the conference

395

: 00:23:59

with their parents and it's not a alright

mom or dad They're going and we're gonna

396

: 00:24:04

be stuck with a babysitter kind of thing

So if we can make our Bitcoin conferences

397

: 00:24:08

family friendly and have that right

the parents go into exhibit hall they

398

: 00:24:13

go to the you know, the workshops and

then The children, like you said, they

399

: 00:24:16

have games and authors reading stories

and crafts and things, just exposing

400

: 00:24:21

them so that it's a conference that

everybody looks forward to every year.

401

: 00:24:25

That would be amazing.

402

: 00:24:27

Yeah, that would be.

403

: 00:24:29

Let's talk about your parents.

404

: 00:24:31

Are they orange pilled?

405

: 00:24:33

Are they resistant?

406

: 00:24:34

What's going on with

the older generation?

407

: 00:24:37

Right.

408

: 00:24:37

Vivian: They're not orange pilled.

409

: 00:24:39

I would put it that way.

410

: 00:24:40

They know that I work in Bitcoin

and . They think I'm living a very

411

: 00:24:43

mysterious lifestyle because they

cannot fully grasp what I'm doing.

412

: 00:24:48

They know I'm hosting a talk

show and I've recorded episodes

413

: 00:24:51

at home when they're around.

414

: 00:24:53

I think at this point in life,

cause I've been abroad, I've been

415

: 00:24:57

on my own since I'm 18 years old.

416

: 00:25:00

So they've kind of have to, by now

they've, they've have enough, a

417

: 00:25:05

lot of respect and support of how

far I've already made for myself.

418

: 00:25:10

And they're very proud of

that and I appreciate that.

419

: 00:25:12

And to the point that they respect and

support how I choose to live my life.

420

: 00:25:17

even though they don't fully understand

what I'm doing or see some risk.

421

: 00:25:22

And like many people out there, they're,

they have a slightly skeptical view.

422

: 00:25:29

They don't know how

stable this industry is.

423

: 00:25:31

They don't know.

424

: 00:25:32

If it's safe both legally and in a lot

of other aspects they don't have a

425

: 00:25:38

complete understanding of what Bitcoin is.

426

: 00:25:40

And I try, I don't really actively

try to orange pill them because

427

: 00:25:47

it's, more than just Bitcoin.

428

: 00:25:49

It's not just Bitcoin.

429

: 00:25:51

If I need, if I want them to fully

understand Bitcoin, it's hours

430

: 00:25:57

and hours and topics after topics

of their own belief systems.

431

: 00:26:02

And I don't want to just poke the,

the beehive and get all bruised by

432

: 00:26:08

and they wouldn't like it either.

433

: 00:26:09

And they've gone through

lives long enough to.

434

: 00:26:13

To believe in what they believe in, and

I'm not going to necessarily meddle with

435

: 00:26:19

that, and ruin our own relationships I

feel like for me, I'd rather be a daughter

436

: 00:26:25

to them, and I love them, I care for them,

and I support their decisions in life and

437

: 00:26:32

I want the freedom to live my own life I

try to keep our relationship very loving

438

: 00:26:39

and caring and try not to get, like, I'm

a peace seeker, like, I don't try to get

439

: 00:26:44

into fights actively with them, to the

point that I actually spend very little

440

: 00:26:49

time talking about Bitcoin with them, and

both of them, they don't speak English,

441

: 00:26:53

, I will ask them to watch my show if they

were to speak English but they don't.

442

: 00:26:58

So, they will just have to trust

me that , I'm using my best

443

: 00:27:01

Tali: judgment.

444

: 00:27:03

That's a very healthy attitude

toward orange pilling.

445

: 00:27:06

I think everybody has

their own journey, right?

446

: 00:27:09

You never know what might trigger

them to start asking questions.

447

: 00:27:14

So yeah, exactly.

448

: 00:27:15

Yeah.

449

: 00:27:16

What about your friends?

450

: 00:27:17

What is it like talking to

other 20 year olds about

451

: 00:27:20

Vivian: Bitcoin?

452

: 00:27:21

Right.

453

: 00:27:21

So my current friend group they are, some

of them are Bitcoin investors and they are

454

: 00:27:27

huddlers, but they wouldn't necessarily

be Bitcoiners, like they wouldn't

455

: 00:27:31

identify themselves as Bitcoiners.

456

: 00:27:34

They're not quite familiar with

the values, my belief systems

457

: 00:27:37

of the, the Bitcoin ecosystem,

and that's totally fine.

458

: 00:27:41

I would consider them normie friends

or friends with a good Bitcoin

459

: 00:27:46

exposure, and that's great financially.

460

: 00:27:48

I am not toxic at all, like you

can, in my own social circle,

461

: 00:27:54

if you're not on Twitter.

462

: 00:27:56

And follow me on Twitter.

463

: 00:27:57

Like they can typically have

no idea that I'm a big quitter.

464

: 00:28:00

Like in my personal Instagram, it's

a private account and there's like

465

: 00:28:04

zero Bitcoin content out there.

466

: 00:28:05

So I try, I'm, I'm not

like toxic in that way.

467

: 00:28:09

To have to like never shout about

Bitcoin and talk about Bitcoin all

468

: 00:28:14

the time, like I'm not that person.

469

: 00:28:16

I'm already working in the space enough

and I like to expose myself In different

470

: 00:28:21

aspects, and I don't think I'm fully

defined with only the label Bitcoiner,

471

: 00:28:29

and I have like many other sides outside

of my work and in my social life.

472

: 00:28:35

But I make sure that people around

me that I care about do know I'm a

473

: 00:28:39

Bitcoiner to the point that if they

have any questions, I make myself

474

: 00:28:42

available to answer these questions.

475

: 00:28:44

I make myself available to help them set

up things cause it can be very confusing,

476

: 00:28:48

all the address and copy and paste and

the anxiety of setting up a transaction.

477

: 00:28:53

Like I've been through all of that, so

I'm there to help them if they need.

478

: 00:28:56

But I'm not going to be the person

that actively like hold the flag

479

: 00:29:00

of talking about this all the time.

480

: 00:29:03

Tali: Again, I feel like that is

such a healthy way of viewing it.

481

: 00:29:06

my husband and I, when we talked to our

four kids, we have this sense of urgency

482

: 00:29:10

because we have lived through, decades

of experience in the current financial

483

: 00:29:17

system and we've felt the pain of it.

484

: 00:29:20

Being so unfair.

485

: 00:29:22

And so we have this sense of urgency to

pass on our knowledge and our wisdom.

486

: 00:29:28

And of course, the more you try to

do that, the more your audience is

487

: 00:29:33

going to be like, Whoa, Whoa, that's

too much, you know, so I should take

488

: 00:29:37

the advice from you and just like,

chill, just sit back and relax.

489

: 00:29:42

Vivian: I think at the end of the

day, it's about what they care about.

490

: 00:29:44

And like I'm coming from a marketing

background and the number one

491

: 00:29:48

thing we kind of learned is that

you have to understand what your

492

: 00:29:52

target audience wants in this case.

493

: 00:29:54

Like, what do they care about?

494

: 00:29:56

Because just like I started

live with Bitcoin to focus on

495

: 00:29:58

the human side, because I don't

care about the technical stuff.

496

: 00:30:01

Like I don't care about.

497

: 00:30:03

Like, banks falling down, it's

too much, too much for me.

498

: 00:30:06

But I'm, I'm interested in humans.

499

: 00:30:08

I'm interested in human stories and

how they've become who they are.

500

: 00:30:12

So you just have to understand

what they care about and what they

501

: 00:30:17

think is cool, especially for kids.

502

: 00:30:20

Like being cool is a big thing.

503

: 00:30:22

And then try to spin Bitcoin

or find the commonality between

504

: 00:30:26

what they think is cool.

505

: 00:30:28

And with Bitcoin, and they'll

be like, Oh, I want to be cool.

506

: 00:30:30

And how can I be cool through Bitcoin?

507

: 00:30:32

And then they will be

like, more interested,

508

: 00:30:34

Tali: right?

509

: 00:30:35

Okay, so how can you be cool with Bitcoin?

510

: 00:30:39

What would you suggest?

511

: 00:30:41

For kids?

512

: 00:30:42

Well, for I would say high schoolers

and up, I think little kids are easy.

513

: 00:30:46

They are so easy.

514

: 00:30:48

They have no filter that

they have put up no walls.

515

: 00:30:51

You tell them something like okay I

love working with the little kids,

516

: 00:30:54

but I'm talking teenagers and up.

517

: 00:30:57

Vivian: Mm hmm well, just thinking

on the spot, maybe like sometimes

518

: 00:31:01

like a Bitcoin as a payment message.

519

: 00:31:03

So for example, if they're into, let's

say K pop, and then they want to buy this

520

: 00:31:08

piece of CD or this, this poster from

someone on the internet, and then you

521

: 00:31:14

can pay them by Bitcoin, and he arrives

instantly or, or this person only takes

522

: 00:31:19

Bitcoin, you have to buy it with Bitcoin.

523

: 00:31:21

Otherwise, you cannot have

this CD that you really want.

524

: 00:31:24

You have to find a use

case there for them.

525

: 00:31:26

So that can be one thing.

526

: 00:31:28

And then maybe when you give the

money, but instead of give them

527

: 00:31:31

pocket money, you say, I'll only

give you this money in Bitcoin.

528

: 00:31:34

And then if they want the money,

they'll have to, like, figure out

529

: 00:31:37

themselves how to receive, right?

530

: 00:31:38

Because they want the money.

531

: 00:31:39

They will go through the hustle just so

that they can receive that pocket money.

532

: 00:31:44

And then they go, actually go

through that learning process

533

: 00:31:46

themselves and figuring things out.

534

: 00:31:49

It's a great entry point for Bitcoin.

535

: 00:31:51

Later on when if they have some

Bitcoin left, they're going to be

536

: 00:31:54

saying, Oh, like it's going up.

537

: 00:31:55

It has doubled and tripled.

538

: 00:31:57

And then they'll be like, Oh,

this is this is something because

539

: 00:32:00

normal money doesn't do that.

540

: 00:32:01

Tali: That's so true.

541

: 00:32:02

Here's my concern, though.

542

: 00:32:04

I have four kids.

543

: 00:32:05

The first one I was able to orange pill,

she went into Bitcoin as it was sliding

544

: 00:32:10

downward when I went from 68 to 16.

545

: 00:32:14

And so if we were to give them

a wallet and they're watching

546

: 00:32:19

their money go down the slide.

547

: 00:32:22

What do you tell them?

548

: 00:32:24

Because it's still going

up and down right now.

549

: 00:32:26

Vivian: Yes.

550

: 00:32:27

And this is particularly why I,

why I'm not toxic and talk about

551

: 00:32:31

Bitcoin with all of my friends

because of this, because of this,

552

: 00:32:34

like, I don't want to be that person.

553

: 00:32:35

And if they ask for my thoughts on

Bitcoin, I will tell them, if you are

554

: 00:32:40

not willing to hold it for at least two

years, just don't bother with it at all.

555

: 00:32:44

I tell them before they get into

it to have the mindset of hodling.

556

: 00:32:49

Before I even tell them to get into

it, because it's guaranteed if they

557

: 00:32:53

see the price going down from 60

to 16, then obviously they're going

558

: 00:32:58

to be like, what the heck, right?

559

: 00:33:01

But I think to your question, it will

come back to the fundamental values

560

: 00:33:04

of, it's, it's not just money, it is

money, and it's primarily money, but

561

: 00:33:10

it's way bigger than money, and it's

about the type of person you want to be.

562

: 00:33:14

It's about the life you want to create

for yourself and the people you care

563

: 00:33:18

about now and the future and I would

actually go back to the roots of values

564

: 00:33:24

and beliefs and why this is created in

the first place and what is the impact

565

: 00:33:30

because most kids are, especially

bitcoiner kids are provided for and

566

: 00:33:36

When you were a kid, and rightfully

so, you don't have the understanding

567

: 00:33:40

of how the monetary system work, how

the society work, and I would actually

568

: 00:33:44

take a step back to uncover some of the

information about how the society works,

569

: 00:33:50

how a family work, and the importance

of having money and the importance of

570

: 00:33:56

creating a life for yourself and how

Bitcoin ultimately allow you to do that.

571

: 00:34:01

And the very concept of Proof of

work and lower time preference well,

572

: 00:34:07

help them to build that conviction.

573

: 00:34:10

And if you give them a wallet

with some Bitcoin in it, you

574

: 00:34:13

should advise them at least don't

touch it for a couple of years.

575

: 00:34:18

And then maybe you'll have some pushback,

but they will know in two years.

576

: 00:34:23

Do you

577

: 00:34:24

Tali: have some resources that you can

recommend to young people that are really

578

: 00:34:30

cool that accept Bitcoin or is Bitcoin

579

: 00:34:33

Vivian: only?

580

: 00:34:35

A really good educational source that

I have that, that I can recommend.

581

: 00:34:40

It's called Why Bitcoin Only?

582

: 00:34:41

I think it's whybitcoinonly.com.

583

: 00:34:43

It's it's actually put together by

a friend of mine and you can find

584

: 00:34:46

why Bitcoin only on Twitter as well.

585

: 00:34:48

This is someone who spent endless amount

of hours to put together a comprehensive.

586

: 00:34:56

Logical order of Bitcoin on the internet

by the most prominent thinkers in the

587

: 00:35:02

space and put together a comprehensive

guide for people to understand.

588

: 00:35:09

The concept Bitcoin is implication.

589

: 00:35:11

So it's definitely a really

great resource to look into.

590

: 00:35:14

If, especially if you're

like the researchy type.

591

: 00:35:17

There's so many good information

out there, but that site and

592

: 00:35:21

the account is one of the most

comprehensive and well put together

593

: 00:35:25

guide that's out there about Bitcoin.

594

: 00:35:28

And so that's on the educational side.

595

: 00:35:31

There are many, many companies and

resources brands are accepting Bitcoin.

596

: 00:35:38

And I know that like for teenagers,

for example, a lot of the time

597

: 00:35:43

they spend on listening to

music, like, like pop culture.

598

: 00:35:46

And they are right now we're

seeing artists taking kind of

599

: 00:35:51

Bitcoin donations or Bitcoin tips.

600

: 00:35:53

And maybe if they find.

601

: 00:35:55

The artists that they like, they wanna

support and they can support in Bitcoin.

602

: 00:35:59

And these are great entry points.

603

: 00:36:02

Tali: the two men you

interviewed in the K-pop industry,

604

: 00:36:05

. Billy and Beck.

605

: 00:36:06

They were mentioning specifically about

K pop music and one of them mentioned

606

: 00:36:11

that there's a lightning store.

607

: 00:36:14

K pop is so popular

now with young people.

608

: 00:36:16

It doesn't matter which

culture you're from.

609

: 00:36:18

Everybody loves K pop.

610

: 00:36:20

So what website were there specifically

addressing when they were talking

611

: 00:36:23

about the K pop lightning store?

612

: 00:36:25

Vivian: Right.

613

: 00:36:26

both of them, they're working on a

Bitcoin music project called The Way

614

: 00:36:29

You Believe, and the website is wyb.so.

615

: 00:36:33

The background is Chani.

616

: 00:36:36

He used to be an K pop idol, like a

solid K pop idol in a singing group.

617

: 00:36:41

And then later on he became professional

producer and singer songwriter.

618

: 00:36:45

And he can, he originally connected

with Jimmy Song , and then got

619

: 00:36:49

inspired to do a Bitcoin music project

called the Way You Believe, because

620

: 00:36:53

Bitcoin changes our way to believe.

621

: 00:36:55

About many things.

622

: 00:36:57

So that's the idea of the song and

they're trying to leverage the influence

623

: 00:37:02

of K pop and the well production

of it to bring Bitcoin mainstream.

624

: 00:37:07

So that's the essence of the project.

625

: 00:37:10

And what they were saying is that

there's a a huge crypto culture in,

626

: 00:37:15

South Korea, and very, very little

people are actually Bitcoin only.

627

: 00:37:20

So their music is on they have their

own site, but it's, there is also

628

: 00:37:25

hosted on a site where I think they

have a lightning donation part and

629

: 00:37:31

it's a website that hosts a lot of

music projects and receive support

630

: 00:37:36

through lightning network, I think.

631

: 00:37:38

Are you referring to

632

: 00:37:39

the website?

633

: 00:37:40

That's called

634

: 00:37:40

wave lake.

635

: 00:37:41

Vivian: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I

think that's the one, yeah.

636

: 00:37:43

Tali: Okay.

637

: 00:37:44

, but wyb.

638

: 00:37:46

so is their specific

website for that project.

639

: 00:37:49

Okay.

640

: 00:37:50

I just want to gather some resources for.

641

: 00:37:52

Young people who

642

: 00:37:55

Vivian: want to go into

Bitcoin with something fun.

643

: 00:37:58

Yeah, and I even contributed

my voice in their project.

644

: 00:38:01

I was the first one to record a

demo for, for their demo sound.

645

: 00:38:06

Like I was acting as the lead vocal.

646

: 00:38:08

So if you tune back to that episode at the

end, you actually like hear my singing in

647

: 00:38:12

Tali: the demo.

648

: 00:38:13

That's really fun.

649

: 00:38:14

So you're also a singer.

650

: 00:38:16

Well, it's my hobby.

651

: 00:38:18

Very fun.

652

: 00:38:19

And are you streaming for sats

right now with your songs?

653

: 00:38:23

Vivian: No.

654

: 00:38:23

I would like to though.

655

: 00:38:24

I would like to.

656

: 00:38:25

Like singing is one of my, like,

less known trades or things about

657

: 00:38:31

me, but I really do enjoy singing.

658

: 00:38:33

I played music growing up and

music till today is like still.

659

: 00:38:36

A lot of a source of happiness, and

my speaker is permanently on when I'm

660

: 00:38:42

at work at home so it's definitely,

definitely an area of interest of,

661

: 00:38:46

of mine growing up, so I, I think.

662

: 00:38:49

Music things, just hobbies in

general that people care about.

663

: 00:38:53

And if we find a common connection

between these hobbies and Bitcoin,

664

: 00:38:57

then they're going to be, it's

going to be natural for the, for

665

: 00:39:00

everyone to, to get it at one point.

666

: 00:39:03

Tali: Yeah, for sure.

667

: 00:39:05

So going back to your

background of traveling.

668

: 00:39:08

From China to Canada, to the UK,

back to Canada, are you noticing

669

: 00:39:14

any sort of cultural differences

in terms of Bitcoin adoption?

670

: 00:39:18

Vivian: Actually, I don't know

because I don't encounter a

671

: 00:39:21

lot of Bitcoiners around me.

672

: 00:39:23

Most Bitcoiners I've seen are on

Bitcoin conferences and naturally so.

673

: 00:39:29

I think we're still very much, very early.

674

: 00:39:32

In, in the space that we don't encounter,

like it's still a very, it's a, it's

675

: 00:39:36

a thrill if you see a bitcoiner on the

street and you instantly identify them.

676

: 00:39:39

Like I'm usually the one who wears

like Bitcoin related shirts outside.

677

: 00:39:44

And I sometimes get eyed for it

because not everybody understand this.

678

: 00:39:51

I have the statement on my hinge profile,

which is like a app to meet people and.

679

: 00:39:57

There's a question, a prompt called

we will get along if, and I say it

680

: 00:40:01

will get along if you're a Bitcoiner

and I have people specifically,

681

: 00:40:05

they match with me just to send a

vomiting emoji to that very statement.

682

: 00:40:09

So we're that early.

683

: 00:40:11

So I don't actually see tons of Bitcoiners

in the physical locations that I'm

684

: 00:40:16

in and I'm hoping this will change

685

: 00:40:18

Tali: very soon.

686

: 00:40:19

I'm sorry you get those messages.

687

: 00:40:20

That's awful.

688

: 00:40:22

Come on, people.

689

: 00:40:23

That's rude.

690

: 00:40:25

I talked to a Bitcoiner woman who said,

I don't know if I can ever date somebody

691

: 00:40:30

who's not Bitcoiner going forward.

692

: 00:40:33

Vivian: I kind of share that.

693

: 00:40:34

I kind of share that.

694

: 00:40:35

It will at this point

is not a deal breaker.

695

: 00:40:38

But if if they send me the vomiting emoji

to that very statement, of course, like

696

: 00:40:42

that's like a that's like a no, hard no.

697

: 00:40:44

But I also recognize there's so

many Bitcoiners out there who don't

698

: 00:40:49

know that they're Bitcoiners yet.

699

: 00:40:50

Like they already have

these values installed.

700

: 00:40:53

They already believe they feel a steep

signs of frustration with what's going

701

: 00:40:58

on in the world today and don't know

why and don't know how it can change.

702

: 00:41:02

And what do you need to do is

just introduce Bitcoin to them.

703

: 00:41:04

And it'll be like instantly

become Bitcoiners.

704

: 00:41:06

Like these people are fine.

705

: 00:41:08

But ultimately, ultimately I

would definitely want my partner

706

: 00:41:11

to be a Bitcoiner, like it's

going to be a requirement,

707

: 00:41:14

Tali: I guess.

708

: 00:41:15

Okay, any last suggestions for

women who are still sitting

709

: 00:41:18

on the fence about Bitcoin?

710

: 00:41:20

Vivian: I think this doesn't specifically

apply to Bitcoin, but really with

711

: 00:41:24

everything women are very resilient

just resilient species in general.

712

: 00:41:29

And oftentimes the drawback of it

is that we're too adaptive in the,

713

: 00:41:34

in the sense that we sometimes take

a more passive approach to adapt

714

: 00:41:39

the environment around us, rather

than taking a proactive approach to

715

: 00:41:43

create the environment around us.

716

: 00:41:45

So what I would encourage everybody

that's out there, not only on the fence

717

: 00:41:50

of Bitcoin, but on, but just in general

to be more intentional in life, to

718

: 00:41:56

think about if I'm, training myself

to get used to something, or if this is

719

: 00:42:01

something that I want and I like to have

train ourselves to have more autonomy.

720

: 00:42:08

To make more active decisions based

on our beliefs and our values, instead

721

: 00:42:15

of just accommodating people around us

and trying to fit in the blank space,

722

: 00:42:22

rather we create space for ourselves,

we create the life that we want to live

723

: 00:42:26

and take a more proactive approach,

and when you start doing that, you will

724

: 00:42:30

start to see so many things are wrong.

725

: 00:42:33

There's so many things that you don't

necessarily agree with, but you're

726

: 00:42:37

playing along for the sake of it.

727

: 00:42:39

Women are more on the

front of peace seekers.

728

: 00:42:43

So sometimes we would be

agreeable just to avoid conflicts.

729

: 00:42:48

Yeah, I suggest everybody

to reconsider that approach.

730

: 00:42:53

Just be more intentional and less

afraid of putting ourselves out there.

731

: 00:42:59

Make authentic decisions, be more

true to ourselves and be more real.

732

: 00:43:05

Social issues and economy

is not a patent for men.

733

: 00:43:10

And these things, if explained

well, are not too complicated

734

: 00:43:15

for everyday women out there.

735

: 00:43:17

And this is what we're doing at

Life with Bitcoin by focusing on

736

: 00:43:21

individual stories, like those are

the things on the emotional side.

737

: 00:43:24

These are the things that

women can relate better.

738

: 00:43:26

And I believe it will help.

739

: 00:43:28

And I'm very excited to do

my share for the community.

740

: 00:43:31

But yeah, just live intentionally.

741

: 00:43:33

Do things with a more proactive approach.

742

: 00:43:37

And we're already on the low

time preference standard.

743

: 00:43:40

So that's already done.

744

: 00:43:41

And then.

745

: 00:43:42

One day or another the, the

puzzles will piece together

746

: 00:43:46

and it will lead to Bitcoin.

747

: 00:43:48

Tali: Well said, well said.

748

: 00:43:50

Thank you so much, Vivian.

749

: 00:43:52

It was so wonderful chatting with you.

750

: 00:43:53

Thank you so much for sharing

your Bitcoin story with

751

: 00:43:56

Vivian: us.

752

: 00:43:56

Yeah, of course.

753

: 00:43:57

Thanks for reaching out

and to stay in touch.

754

: 00:44:00

I'm B t c Viv, so B T C V I V on Twitter.

755

: 00:44:04

And the show is called Life With Bitcoin.

756

: 00:44:06

It's also on Twitter.

757

: 00:44:07

It's Life with Bitcoin, but

wi just n w so l I s E W.

758

: 00:44:14

I'm on YouTube as well, and feel free to

reach out if there's anything I can help.

759

: 00:44:20

Tali: Thanks for joining us today

760

: 00:44:22

.

If the discussion with our guest resonated with you and you would

761

: 00:44:25

like to dive deeper into the world of

Bitcoin, don't miss out on joining the

762

: 00:44:29

Orange Hatter Women's Reading Club.

763

: 00:44:32

The meetup link is in the show notes.

764

: 00:44:34

Also, if there are women in your life

whom you think would both enjoy and

765

: 00:44:38

benefit from learning more about Bitcoin,

please share Orange Hatter with them.

766

: 00:44:43

Until next time, bye!